St. Augustine commission supports commuter rail to Jacksonville

[icarus]

I grew up with stories of boys following the rail line  and using the rail bridge from downtown to the beaches and stories of my parents taking the train to FSU from downtown Jax.  It would be nice to see a return to effective mass transit and especially rail.

We, however, are faced with limited economic capital and effectuating a change in popular culture here in NE Florida to support rail.  I think a commuter to rail to St. Augustine with perhaps a stop at Palencia may make sense at some point but right now, expansion of the existing people mover to a useful system, i.e. destinations, or a streetcar system makes more sense in terms of ridership, e.g. economics.  With the moving of the courthouse, it would seem the street traffic argument for running the people mover down Bay street to the stadium as planned is no longer valid.

[paulirwin]

Awesome, thanks for that! Yes, I would take this just about every day. I live near the FSCJ Kent stop, and as a consultant I work downtown Jax some days, downtown St Augustine others. Both have stops where I could walk from. Again I'll admit that I'm selfish, but I want this to happen!!!

[fieldafm]

Simms, I am in your 'industry' and without a doubt Austin's rail has been successful in stimulating TOD.  Furthermore, it has so much room to grow. 

Similarly, Nashville's system has worked beyond expectations.   

I can't say much about Atlanta's new streetcar line... I haven't lived or done business there in nearly 6 years.

[simms3]

Hmm, guess it's not the development news story du jour for either Austin or Nashville that I've been hearing, not to say it isn't out there.  My firm is invested in Nashville on a deal that I once worked on (tower is coincidentally 2 blocks from the Star stop, but I'm pretty sure that most in our company familiar with the deal don't even know the Star exists, LoL), but we aren't invested in Austin/TX.  We have familiar counterparts from Atlanta going long on Austin office in a major way with new development, and I know a good many folks working on multifamily development deals there (actually I have seen the underwriting of one of the deals as our partner in our Nashville deal just put up a tower in Austin - along the waterfront far from the rail), just haven't heard the positives of the rail yet...

[simms3]

To clear the record, I am not anti-rail.  I am simply playing devil's advocate and looking at the proposals in Jax through a different lens.  I am just not sure that Jax as a whole is "ready" for intercity urban or intracity regional rail.  I would hope and guess that the city is more ready for a smaller intercity line with lots of development potential (line going NW or due North?).  Here's my beef with commuter rail from St. Augustine to DT Jax:

1) Are commuting patterns actually enough to justify ridership?

2) Traffic along 95 in between is not that bad, not bad enough where a rail with stops is actually a better commute

3) Gas is cheap in NE FL, parking is cheap if not free, it's abundant

4) Density along the proposed corridor is scarce at best

5) Doubtful JTA would handle - if it's like most cities (I think) a separate entity would build/run the line, an entity that spans the region (this is not something that is set up in Jax, Jax doesn't have much if any experience setting up regional entities and promoting regional coordination and cooperation)

6) What percentage of residents along the route work in DT Jax or St. Aug

6a) I realize most probably work elsewhere and "busses would tie in to system", but asking someone in the south to ride a city bus is like asking someone to sell their soul to the devil for nothing in return (we're talking about asking folks who live in SJC to transfer to a JTA bus here, folks - reality check, LoL)

7) Express busses operated by a regional bus authority or a SJC Transit authority into DT Jax, Southpoint, or Avenues, etc would work just as well and would be even cheaper to build/operate

8 ) Do we honestly think a commuter rail line on this route would spur TOD?  Maybe that one site near San Marco, but I'd rather see LRT or streetcar go through there.

[tufsu1]

well DOT will be adding express lanes on the Buckman bridge in the future and hopefully will let express buses use them. I do not see any kind of rail crossing there in my lifetime.

really...do you know something I don't?

[tufsu1]

Besides, will Jax commuter rail be more like Austin's, or Tri-Rail/Nashville Star?  All three are failures in my book and I wouldn't support my taxpayer dollars going towards such plans - and I'm a liberal, especially with transit!  LoL

well good thing you don't pay taxes here then huh?

seriously simms....it isn't like development automatically and quickly gravitates to transit corridors....more often than not it takes time....for example, DC's Metro didn't garner much TOD for the first two decades....yet look at it now....same can be said for the southern leg of MetroRail in Miami

[spuwho]

It takes years for these regional transit plans to come together. Unfortunately JTA is the 100 pound gorilla on anything substantial in NE Florida.

I have posted on it before, but the Chicago area came up with a novel plan (thanks to Gov. Richard Ogilvie, one of the few not in jail) to deal with the gorilla back in the 1970's. The CTA.

The regional authority is set up with a board made up of CTA oriented appointees and suburban (meaning non-Chicago) members. The authority chair is appointed by the state of Illinois.

CTA runs their own affairs within the confines of the city and its access to O'Hare.

Pace (bus) and Metra (rail) run their own affairs. Pace doesn't run services inside Chicago unless CTA approves. Metra serves the outer cities and under agreement some city stations as well.

While it hasn't been perfected, they do run some transfer abilities between the lines, but CTA complains they get the short end of the deal on the transfers and they stop serving it. Ultimately they would like to go to a single card system for the whole network, but CTA went electronic on their own w/o much input from RTA.

Using this formula, this helps avoid what used to be a constant funding competition between the city for CTA and the suburbs for commuter services. Every service gets adequate capital to maintain their plant. (CTA is currently replacing their L trainsets), the ability to run their own affairs, but yet coordinate with their peers in the burbs.

This model could work for JTA and the outer counties interested in a transit plan.  JTA can mind their own kitchen, but participate as a member of the regional authority.

[simms3]

I think a lot of development naturally gravitates towards well-planned transit.  DC was building TOD before the term even came out - Balston-Rosslyn corridor, Bethesda, Silver Springs, Rockville, etc.  I also think besides just having a rail line there are other things at play.

[simms3]

Spuwho, great information.  I think the Bay Area transit providers are set up very similarly, as are the NYC/Tri-State.  I don't think a lone commuter rail line in lil ol Jax needs to be as complicated - it won't necessarily be competing with JTA busses/Skyway, but rather potentially feed the JTA system (though I have doubts it would feed busses by a measurable amount).

Frankly, I'm surprised that Clay and SJC don't have an express bus system into Duval already.

[fsujax]

Clay does have express bus service the X4, the X2 runs from the beach to downtown and one is being planned for St Johns. Also the State legislature just approved the creation of a regional transportation commission consisting of Baker, Duval, Clay, Nassau, St Johns and Putnam, so it seems regional coordination is moving right along.

http://www.northfloridartsc.com/Pages/default.aspx

[simms3]

^^^Ok.  More examples of commuter busses below.  They are commonly used by regional transit authorities and outlying counties' transit operators into the central county.









When I researched to see what kind of busses were on the X2/X4, I came across this article.

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/2009/03/go-to-back-of-bus-over-top-in.html

The blog writes as if the Motorcoach bus use on these express routes is unique, but hardly so.

[fsujax]

nothing unique about using MCI buses for express routes. It's standard procedure.

[simms3]

Well, then why doesn't JTA or a county authority put them to more use?  JTA only has a few of these busses.  When I lived in Midtown Atlanta, I would see probably 30 CCT MCI buses and maybe 40 GRTA MCI buses dump passengers off in the 8-9 AM hour at the transit/MARTA station across from my condo building.  Granted suburban Atl counties are larger than Clay or SJC and commuting patterns are more DT/MT Atlanta centric than Jacksonville's are DT Jax centric, but I would think that SJC or JTA running more express buses would be more beneficial for transit than commuter rail.  Neither will really spur economic development, the commuter rail has greater potential to be a blunder and is much more expensive, and commuter buses are very flexible and carry the same demographic that would ride rail as choice riders.

You act as if Jax already has this on lock, but I don't think it does.  I don't think you realize that commuter buses are a huge integral part of many if not most larger metro regional transportation solutions.  I don't believe I have seen one MCI bus in Jax, ever.  JTA took delivery of 3 of these buses more than a decade ago, how many do they have now?  5?  10?  They need 20-30!  SJC needs to send some up with its own agency.  Clay County needs to form its own transit agency.

[Ocklawaha]

Well, then why doesn't JTA or a county authority put them to more use?  JTA only has a few of these busses.  When I lived in Midtown Atlanta, I would see probably 30 CCT MCI buses and maybe 40 GRTA MCI buses dump passengers off in the 8-9 AM hour at the transit/MARTA station across from my condo building.

CCT operates about 45 MCI's on 7 express routes. MARTA operates 710 buses and unless something is new, they don't have any MCI's on the property. The MARTA fleet is however nearly 100% CNG fueled. JTA operates a fleet of 162 buses for fixed-route service and 102 vans for para-transit. This is hardly an apples to apples comparison.

...I would think that SJC or JTA running more express buses would be more beneficial for transit than commuter rail.  Neither will really spur economic development, the commuter rail has greater potential to be a blunder and is much more expensive, and commuter buses are very flexible and carry the same demographic that would ride rail as choice riders.

You are treating them as equals, which they are NOT. There are many people who, for whatever reason will not step foot on a bus or a motor coach. You will not carry the same demographic on rail and bus. You are correct that buses spur economic development or TOD, only in rare cases, but rail tends to do so enough that it is considered common knowledge.

I don't believe I have seen one MCI bus in Jax, ever.  JTA took delivery of 3 of these buses more than a decade ago, how many do they have now?  5?  10?  They need 20-30! 

They have 3 and could probably keep 10 busy during rush hour. The original plan was for 6, but when the team came to demo the coaches, they were sabotaged during the night. Brake lines were cut and battery cables removed, making the MCI salesmen very reluctant to return.

St. Johns County has it's own 'Sunshine Bus' network which is an award winning system, Clay has 'Clay Transit'. Both of these are comprehensive systems, making it possible to go from downtown JAX to St. Augustine Beach, Hastings, Middleburg, Green Cove Springs or even Starke.

Glad you liked the blog, but if you'll reread the story, it is speaking to a unique type of express bus, not just seats on wheels, the concept is 'your office on wheels,' with all of the comforts of home. Just another idea that was slung at this city's transit agency and had the impact of eggs on a stone wall.