10 Qualities of a Great Waterfront Destination

[thelakelander]

1. Jacksonville - this is merely potential greenspace as only a couple small squares in Riverside/Avondale are actually parks at least semi-maintained.  I believe that either the Shipyards and/or the JEA site should entirely be public space.  That does not mean that the space can't be activated by miscellaneous uses such as an Intuition Brewery or a square where food trucks have semi-permanent space or maybe even the Maritime Museum can build a permanent architecturally pleasing location.

Regardless...there is basically no waterfront access in Jacksonville and the Shipyards and JEA site are sort of the two last options remaining.

We're essentially saying the same thing in different ways. Taking what green space is desired and parceling out portions of the site for incremental implementation of interactive infill development is the same concept.  I also agree that the Hart Bridge ramp needs to eventually come down.  However, at this point, it's a FDOT facility that the city has no control over.  I guess the key with it would be to make sure it comes down when it comes to the end of its useful life.

With that said, all of the maps  except for the San Francisco map are a little deceiving. In the Jax example, it appears the Shipyards example isn't entirely green space or you're trading new green space to convert a portion of Metropolitan Park to private development. The Atlanta map shows the Beltline but Jax's S-Line, existing riverwalk system and St. Petersburg's much larger Pinellas Trail (DT St. Petersburg to Tarpon Springs) aren't shown.  In Miami, Bayside is shown as green space but the area the Landing sits in is omitted. I think there is a large opportunity for infill in the vicinity of Hogan & Water Street. Given the centralized location, it would be more beneficial to the Northbank than dropping $100 million in the Shipyards would. Also, most of the cities with highlighted green spaces actually have a lot more large or decently maintained green spaces not highlighted. San Francisco is very impressive but we gave up the chance for a super large urban green space when we passed on the WPA's offer in the 1930s. 

Nevertheless, thanks for putting this together. It's a very eye opening exercise. We should attempt to see if we can get some GIS shapefiles from a few communities to accurately compare and expose potential opportunities not shown, such as the McCoys Creek Greenway and Westbrook Park, which when combined, gets you from Woodstock on the Westside to downtown. Also, what this exercise really exposes to me is the potential of the existing spaces lining Hogans Creek.  It is essentially our "premier" urban park.

[thelakelander]

I thought the work done by Savannah College of Art and Design's graduate level Architecture Urban Design Studio in 2010 resulted in some creative concepts that integrate green space with a mix of interactive uses at the pedestrian scale level. Not everything was realistic but I thought the overall strategy of a few student projects squarely hit the head on the nail.





http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-nov-a-vision-for-the-shipyards

[simms3]

1. Jacksonville - this is merely potential greenspace as only a couple small squares in Riverside/Avondale are actually parks at least semi-maintained.  I believe that either the Shipyards and/or the JEA site should entirely be public space.  That does not mean that the space can't be activated by miscellaneous uses such as an Intuition Brewery or a square where food trucks have semi-permanent space or maybe even the Maritime Museum can build a permanent architecturally pleasing location.

Regardless...there is basically no waterfront access in Jacksonville and the Shipyards and JEA site are sort of the two last options remaining.

We're essentially saying the same thing in different ways. Taking what green space is desired and parceling out portions of the site for incremental implementation of interactive infill development is the same concept.

No, infill to me means apartments, office, etc.  I don't think any of that should go on the Shipyards or even JEA site, but the below would work...it's a new temporary "shipping container" restaurant going up in Midtown Atlanta, operated by a well known food truck business...seems very fitting as an activator of parkspace at the Shipyards.





This is the rendering of the Anchor Brewing Co that just signed a new lease to put facilities on Pier 48 in SF...it's a much larger version of what Intuition could have done had the city allowed it.

I also agree that the Hart Bridge ramp needs to eventually come down.  However, at this point, it's a FDOT facility that the city has no control over.  I guess the key with it would be to make sure it comes down when it comes to the end of its useful life.

We need to be on it.  Useful life has to be coming up...those ramps are older than the I-95 elevated section on the Southbank, no?

With that said, all of the maps  except for the San Francisco map are a little deceiving.

How's SF not deceiving?  The naked eye makes it appear the waterfront in the densest areas isn't public/greenspace when in fact it is the best public space out of all areas below.  Besides...I had to manually highlight the other cities because they have so much tree cover that they appear green already.

In the Jax example, it appears the Shipyards example isn't entirely green space or you're trading new green space to convert a portion of Metropolitan Park to private development.

Before we rush to Jacksonville's defense, it's the only city where I even highlighted "what could be".  If I merely did the big pieces already in place as I did the others, we'd see 4 small green boxes in Riverside/Avondale, only one being waterfront.  Yes, I traded Met Park for Shipyards.

The Atlanta map shows the Beltline but Jax's S-Line, existing riverwalk system and St. Petersburg's much larger Pinellas Trail (DT St. Petersburg to Tarpon Springs) aren't shown.

For riverwalks, I didn't highlight similar in Miami or the expansive ones in SF, which is where I think the SF map is actually most deceiving.  Jacksonville's Riverwalk is 10-20 ft wide and varies from trail to poorly maintained wooden planks to actual riverwalk between Landing and Hyatt.  Hard to highlight that.  In SF where it looks like there is no green/public space is actually where there are 40-100 ft wide riverwalks lined with shops, restaurants, tourist attractions, piers still in use, docks, etc.

Atlanta's Beltline and Stone Mountain Trail (2 separate but connected) are shown where they are developed.  I didn't highlight the entire 28 mile Beltline or 16 mile SM Trail, which makes that system much larger than the Pinellas Trail.  Have you been to the Beltline recently?  Aside from elevated road crossings, it's fully landscaped and activated space that's 60-100 ft wide at minimum and HEAVILY used.  In fact congestion is already a daily problem.  It's used daily as much as Jax Riverwalk is used during big events.  It connects major parks and has spurred major development.  We're talking close to a hundred million dollars in-place just for the "construction of" and landscaping for a 2.2 mile section of the Beltline (the highlighted N-S strip), and similar for SM Trail (the E-W strip).

The S-Line is merely a bike trail (there are many more of those in Atl as well not highlighted) and the Pinellas Trail is a longer, wider and better ROW bike trail, again...useful, all cities should have, but they shouldn't be held up as something special, they should be the norm.

In Miami, Bayside is shown as green space but the area the Landing sits in is omitted.

Perhaps.  But would the Landing really have made a dent in greenspace?  Miami still has all that waterfront parkspace on either side of Bayside, the Landing has a thin, less developed Riverwalk.

I think there is a large opportunity for infill in the vicinity of Hogan & Water Street. Given the centralized location, it would be more beneficial to the Northbank than dropping $100 million in the Shipyards would.

Perhaps, but this should be up to Toney.  He's maybe capable, but won't do it.  All talk and no action, the city practically gave him the land with its "ground lease" and he got the improvements for almost nothing.  I still think having a waterfront park either on Shipyards or JEA or both will do more in long run, maybe even short run to spur development.  The Landing will benefit from and spur tourism, not benefit from or spur new DT apartments (my own company has examples in its portfolio that can prove that).

Also, most of the cities with highlighted green spaces actually have a lot more large or decently maintained green spaces not highlighted.

Not Jax.  Not Atlanta.  I didn't highlight SF.  So where in Miami or St. Pete?  I've spent much time in the former...I know further south off the aerial there is some greenspace and preserved land, as well as along the ICW further north, and of course there is South Beach, but all of the aerials are taken from the same height and show what they show around the center city.

San Francisco is very impressive but we gave up the chance for a super large urban green space when we passed on the WPA's offer in the 1930s.

Wasn't trying to highlight GG Park or the Presidio, but at the height of aerial I provided for all cities, you just so happen to see the entire city of SF and thus all of its greenspace.

Nevertheless, thanks for putting this together. It's a very eye opening exercise.

You're welcome

[JFman00]

http://www.cpdit01.com/resources/brochures/pdf/Chicago%20Park%20District%20Map.pdf

Every dark shaded area is a park. Notice particularly just how much of the Loop is devoted to park space. One of the very few non-shaded areas of lakefront is Navy Pier, one of the city's biggest tourist attractions.

[simms3]

^^^Milwaukee's waterfront is the same way.  Have a friend who lives "lakefront" and when I visit we're always biking around the lakefront to get coffee (Alterra, which is great!), to play tennis, go to the museum, etc  Park is always filled with people (very much like Lincoln Park in Chi)

[thelakelander]

We're essentially saying the same thing in different ways. Taking what green space is desired and parceling out portions of the site for incremental implementation of interactive infill development is the same concept.

No, infill to me means apartments, office, etc.  I don't think any of that should go on the Shipyards or even JEA site, but the below would work...it's a new temporary "shipping container" restaurant going up in Midtown Atlanta, operated by a well known food truck business...seems very fitting as an activator of parkspace at the Shipyards.

This is the rendering of the Anchor Brewing Co that just signed a new lease to put facilities on Pier 48 in SF...it's a much larger version of what Intuition could have done had the city allowed it.

I go by the general definition which can be distilled down to the integration of new land uses within an already heavily developed area. So retail/dining goes in the same boat as housing and office.  I tend not to get ground level use specific. Instead, I believe designing for the pedestrian scale experience is probably the most critical factor in creating a space that attracts people on an around the clock basis.

We need to be on it.  Useful life has to be coming up...those ramps are older than the I-95 elevated section on the Southbank, no?

I'm not sure. The Overland Bridge gets significantly more traffic and maybe slightly older but the Hart Bridge ramps can't be that far behind. When that time comes, I believe there has been enough talk within the community that taking it down instead of replacing it will be on the table.

With that said, all of the maps  except for the San Francisco map are a little deceiving.

How's SF not deceiving?

The SF aerial wasn't deceiving because it was just a basic image. By highlighting select locations on the other maps, it overlooks other urban public spaces where opportunity for investment and better utilization may exist. Nevertheless, for me it's not about how much park space we can see from a couple of thousand feet, but how what we have works at the pedestrian scale level. For example, Metropolitan Park is about the largest thing we have downtown, yet it really does downtown no good. On the other hand, everyone ignores the space in front of the new courthouse but it probably gets more foot traffic than any spot in the Northbank outside of the Landing now.

Before we rush to Jacksonville's defense, it's the only city where I even highlighted "what could be".  If I merely did the big pieces already in place as I did the others, we'd see 4 small green boxes in Riverside/Avondale, only one being waterfront.  Yes, I traded Met Park for Shipyards.

I'm not rushing to Jax's defense. I haven't morphed into I-10 just yet, lol. In fact, I'm probably doing the exact opposite. I'm not sure Jax could or would properly maintain the grounds if all of the Shipyards & JEA sites were converted into green space. I base that assessment on the condition of the majority of public spaces already existing in the vicinity.

For riverwalks, I didn't highlight similar in Miami or the expansive ones in SF, which is where I think the SF map is actually most deceiving.  Jacksonville's Riverwalk is 10-20 ft wide and varies from trail to poorly maintained wooden planks to actual riverwalk between Landing and Hyatt.  Hard to highlight that.  In SF where it looks like there is no green/public space is actually where there are 40-100 ft wide riverwalks lined with shops, restaurants, tourist attractions, piers still in use, docks, etc.

This points to another element about the discussion of more park space.  Do we need more or do we need to dramatically improve and amenitize the existing spaces we have? For example, the green space between the performing arts center and the river is roughly 120' wide x 500' in depth. To me, given the location, that (along with converting Hogan south of Water) is an area where I'd place more focus on improving if I had cash to invest.

Atlanta's Beltline and Stone Mountain Trail (2 separate but connected) are shown where they are developed.  I didn't highlight the entire 28 mile Beltline or 16 mile SM Trail, which makes that system much larger than the Pinellas Trail.  Have you been to the Beltline recently?  Aside from elevated road crossings, it's fully landscaped and activated space that's 60-100 ft wide at minimum and HEAVILY used.  In fact congestion is already a daily problem.  It's used daily as much as Jax Riverwalk is used during big events.  It connects major parks and has spurred major development.  We're talking close to a hundred million dollars in-place just for the "construction of" and landscaping for a 2.2 mile section of the Beltline (the highlighted N-S strip), and similar for SM Trail (the E-W strip).

The S-Line is merely a bike trail (there are many more of those in Atl as well not highlighted) and the Pinellas Trail is a longer, wider and better ROW bike trail, again...useful, all cities should have, but they shouldn't be held up as something special, they should be the norm.

All former rail lines, the ROW for the Beltline, S-Line, and Pinellas Trail are all about the same in width, roughly 50-100 feet. The Pinellas Trail already gets great use but the S-Line will become if it becomes a part of a connected network. I also agree that none of these spaces, Beltline included, should be held up as something special.  Bike and pedestrian friendly urban cores should be the norm.

I think there is a large opportunity for infill in the vicinity of Hogan & Water Street. Given the centralized location, it would be more beneficial to the Northbank than dropping $100 million in the Shipyards would.

Perhaps, but this should be up to Toney.  He's maybe capable, but won't do it.  All talk and no action, the city practically gave him the land with its "ground lease" and he got the improvements for almost nothing.  I still think having a waterfront park either on Shipyards or JEA or both will do more in long run, maybe even short run to spur development.  The Landing will benefit from and spur tourism, not benefit from or spur new DT apartments (my own company has examples in its portfolio that can prove that).

I'm not sure what's going on with the Landing these days and what its future may hold. That's a topic that should be on the forefront, in regards to generating life in the Northbank, imo.

Also, most of the cities with highlighted green spaces actually have a lot more large or decently maintained green spaces not highlighted.

Not Jax.  Not Atlanta.  I didn't highlight SF.  So where in Miami or St. Pete?

In Jax, a few parks in Murray Hill and San Marco come to mind. Durkeeville also has a couple of decent spaces. In Miami, Margaret Pace Park (near old Omni Mall), Lummus Park (DT/Miami River) and Alice Wainwright Park (Brickell) come to mind. All are waterfront spaces.

[TD*]

You all ever get tired of all of your hard work falling on deaf ears.. I dont think the leadership in Jax knows a damn thing about good planning.

I just went out to Portland for a week, and against my will I am back in Florida.

They really get it out there.

West Coast $ lyfe.

[thelakelander]

Sometimes it can get frustrating, especially when returning from another place that gets it, but it's all worth it when something you've pushed for that improves the community becomes reality.

[Charles Hunter]

The Hart Ramps were built with the bridge which opened in 1968.  The oldest parts of the Overland Bridge date back to the original Expressway System, built by the Jacksonville Expressway Authority in the mid 1950s.  As I understand it, there have been various additions to the Overland over time, but I wouldn't want to guess which or when - or if those parts are going to be replaced.

Oh, and great article and discussion.  I wish the city hadn't been so short-sighted in denying Intuition's proposal for a piece of the Shipyards site.

[simms3]

Aside from all of the great things SF already has on it waterfront, check out the below for new openings and  proposals...all ideas that can be catered to Jacksonville.

Pier 70 redevelopment


What it looks like now:










The concept:



Discussion about the Forest City section: http://www.potreroview.net/news10945.html


It is my opinion that if you were to develop the Shipyards for mixed-use, you can go with no less than a Forest City.  It was a crime that we went with Jeff Spence before...It's also my opinion that because there is no public waterfront greenspace in Jax that the entire Shipyards should be public space, whether that's now or 10 years from now.  SF can do mixed use because it already has so much waterfront parkspace and public space...its entire waterfront is public.


Baseball team Giants' Mission Rock development - Pier 48 and surrounds.

Now to be anchored by Anchor Steam Brewing Co in 200,000 SF.

http://www.sfgate.com/business/bottomline/article/Anchor-Brewing-plant-on-S-F-waterfront-4288394.php#photo-4204145





Video included in link.



Golden State Warriors stadium...Piers 30-32



http://www.sfbg.com/2012/11/20/aggressive-warriors



The new Exploratorium opening in April (relocation from Palace of Fine Arts)...$300MM project.  Piers 15-17







http://www.ehdd.com/work/exploratorium-at-piers-15-17


New cruise terminal on Pier 27 (this is not a hit here):



http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2013/03/12/sf_to_become_major_cruise_port.php

[thelakelander]

^Looks like a great project. Thanks for sharing.  Too bad we already demolished all the old shipyard buildings but that's the type of project an urban waterfront can never have too much of, in my opinion. 

Btw, we do have green space adjacent to the Shipyards, in the form of Metropolitan Park and the space formerly known as Kids Kampus.  They just don't get much use outside of an occasional festival (which never spills over into the heart of DT). Why would the Shipyards as 100% green space immediately next door be any different?.  After you invest $50-$100 million in cleaning and sodding the entire 44 acres, foot traffic will still be higher between the Acosta and Main Street Bridges. I don't think a lack of green space is  DT Jax's problem.  We still struggle to maintain and take full advantage of what we already have and for some reason, we're afraid to deal with Sleiman and the Landing.  However, that's an issue we're going to have to overcome since it sits in the heart of the Northbank waterfront and remains one of downtown's top attractions.

[simms3]

^^^Agree with all those points, but in addition to not maintaining the very small amount of green space the city does have, the city does not have that much green space to actually maintain.  Look...I've spent the past 7 years living in and traveling between places with a lot of public and private money going to public projects (as have you), so I'm just used to stuff getting done...my mentality is why not deal with the Landing AND the Shipyards AND the JEA land AND the Emerald Necklace?

Metropolitan Park and Kidz Kampus are not parks, LoL.  They are stupid.  When was the last time there was a public works project in the city?  And I'm not talking a new overpass over Kernan (but then that's part of the problem...the people would much prefer new suburban overpasses over spending money to remove the Hart Bridge ramps and working to redo/reclaim the waterfront...it seems as if there aren't people who even realize what the waterfront could be, have they not seen other waterfronts?).

I've never been to a successful waterfront city without a lot of waterfront green/public space.  Truth be told, people need to be dreaming big, i.e. riverwalk all the way from the old Ford Plant (which should be a great  event/public space) to St. Vincent's and a big green space at the Shipyards that is actually a great park/place in between.

I can think of at least one consistent user: adult sport leagues.  Where the hell do people play kickball and softball?  LoL  Wouldn't it be great to have a convenient place for all the office workers to walk to after work for their league games and practices?  See, that's what I'm seeing and used to elsewhere...it's the little things that tie together that make a place great.  Maybe it's the JEA land and they take the Skyway (park n ride at Kings Ave garage) or maybe it's the Emerald Necklace and they bike from work between DT and Springfield with a softball game on the way.

[thelakelander]

^^^Agree with all those points, but in addition to not maintaining the very small amount of green space the city does have, the city does not have that much green space to actually maintain.  Look...I've spent the past 7 years living in and traveling between places with a lot of public and private money going to public projects (as have you), so I'm just used to stuff getting done...my mentality is why not deal with the Landing AND the Shipyards AND the JEA land AND the Emerald Necklace?

I agree.

Metropolitan Park and Kidz Kampus are not parks, LoL.  They are stupid.

They are parks. They are just bad ones.

When was the last time there was a public works project in the city?  And I'm not talking a new overpass over Kernan (but then that's part of the problem...the people would much prefer new suburban overpasses over spending money to remove the Hart Bridge ramps and working to redo/reclaim the waterfront...it seems as if there aren't people who even realize what the waterfront could be, have they not seen other waterfronts?).

The last public works project was probably the one no one wanted....the county courthouse.  We had to fight tooth and nail on that one to get a green space in front of it, instead of a more expensive road.  Even then, the space still has very few trees, amenities or sidewalks on Broad and Clay.

I've never been to a successful waterfront city without a lot of waterfront green/public space.

"A lot" can mean several things.  However, I'd say we have just as much, if not more, than New Orleans, Savannah, and Charleston have right now. We just don't use them to their potential.

Truth be told, people need to be dreaming big, i.e. riverwalk all the way from the old Ford Plant (which should be a great  event/public space) to St. Vincent's and a big green space at the Shipyards that is actually a great park/place in between.

One cool think I like about Norfolk's urban waterfront is that it's still a working waterfront. Truth be told, I'd rather see Commodore's Point be recycled for more maritime related industry.  I'd probably push for North Florida Shipyards to add a decent sized drydock before kicking them out for more green space.

I can think of at least one consistent user: adult sport leagues.  Where the hell do people play kickball and softball?  LoL  Wouldn't it be great to have a convenient place for all the office workers to walk to after work for their league games and practices?  See, that's what I'm seeing and used to elsewhere...it's the little things that tie together that make a place great.  Maybe it's the JEA land and they take the Skyway (park n ride at Kings Ave garage) or maybe it's the Emerald Necklace and they bike from work between DT and Springfield with a softball game on the way.

The Emerald Necklace already has playing fields in the parks lining Hogans Creek and in Brooklyn, near McCoys Creek. All are under utilized with little to no connectivity between the Northbank or maintenance.  Besides, you don't need the entire JEA site for playing fields.  You could easily carve that out and still have room for much more. As for the Shipyards, I'm not sure it makes financial sense to clean it up to only use it for pick up soccer games.

[simms3]

I've never been to a successful waterfront city without a lot of waterfront green/public space.

"A lot" can mean several things.  However, I'd say we have just as much, if not more, than New Orleans, Savannah, and Charleston have right now. We just don't use them to their potential.

Perhaps...but why settle for less?  We have less "substance" away from the waterfront whereas each of those cities have tourist districts and thriving areas not dependent on the waterfront.  Most of our entire downtown is within 2-3 blocks of the water.

Truth be told, people need to be dreaming big, i.e. riverwalk all the way from the old Ford Plant (which should be a great  event/public space) to St. Vincent's and a big green space at the Shipyards that is actually a great park/place in between.

One cool think I like about Norfolk's urban waterfront is that it's still a working waterfront. Truth be told, I'd rather see Commodore's Point be recycled for more maritime related industry.  I'd probably push for North Florida Shipyards to add a decent sized drydock before kicking them out for more green space.

Eh, I disagree here.  The appearance of once having industry is cool, actually having industry is not, unless it's in an industrial area.

I can think of at least one consistent user: adult sport leagues.  Where the hell do people play kickball and softball?  LoL  Wouldn't it be great to have a convenient place for all the office workers to walk to after work for their league games and practices?  See, that's what I'm seeing and used to elsewhere...it's the little things that tie together that make a place great.  Maybe it's the JEA land and they take the Skyway (park n ride at Kings Ave garage) or maybe it's the Emerald Necklace and they bike from work between DT and Springfield with a softball game on the way.

The Emerald Necklace already has playing fields in the parks lining Hogans Creek and in Brooklyn, near McCoys Creek. All are under utilized with little to no connectivity between the Northbank or maintenance.  Besides, you don't need the entire JEA site for playing fields.  You could easily carve that out and still have room for much more. As for the Shipyards, I'm not sure it makes financial sense to clean it up to only use it for pick up soccer games.

It's why I mentioned the Emerald necklace...please I'm not so dumb where I would think the entire shipyards or JEA site should go solely to playing fields   I just brought it up as a potential use for a portion, but yea if the city could connect the Emerald necklace and spruce it up...it would probably be better there.  Still, expansive "greenspace" on the waterfront is spectacular.  Heavily used wherever it's properly implemented, and truly a great "public" use.

[thelakelander]

I've never been to a successful waterfront city without a lot of waterfront green/public space.

"A lot" can mean several things.  However, I'd say we have just as much, if not more, than New Orleans, Savannah, and Charleston have right now. We just don't use them to their potential.

Perhaps...but why settle for less?  We have less "substance" away from the waterfront whereas each of those cities have tourist districts and thriving areas not dependent on the waterfront.  Most of our entire downtown is within 2-3 blocks of the water.

Not settling for less.  I believe in quality over quantity. Btw, our urban core (Northbank included) economy isn't totally dependent on the waterfront as well.

Truth be told, people need to be dreaming big, i.e. riverwalk all the way from the old Ford Plant (which should be a great  event/public space) to St. Vincent's and a big green space at the Shipyards that is actually a great park/place in between.

One cool think I like about Norfolk's urban waterfront is that it's still a working waterfront. Truth be told, I'd rather see Commodore's Point be recycled for more maritime related industry.  I'd probably push for North Florida Shipyards to add a decent sized drydock before kicking them out for more green space.

Eh, I disagree here.  The appearance of once having industry is cool, actually having industry is not, unless it's in an industrial area.

I have no problem with your disagreement. However, that was and still is an area of heavy maritime related industry still generating thousands of high paying jobs.  I'm not in favor of chasing that off for passive recreational space.

It's why I mentioned the Emerald necklace...please I'm not so dumb where I would think the entire shipyards or JEA site should go solely to playing fields

Which is why I've said, we're pretty much in alignment on our thinking towards the Shipyards and JEA sites.  All along, I've said we should carve out the desired greenspace we want. There's no reason we can't have waterfront greenspace with some retail/restaurants, a hotel or even a few museums all integrated with it.

I just brought it up as a potential use for a portion, but yea if the city could connect the Emerald necklace and spruce it up...it would probably be better there.

I believe we can and should. Such a move would have far more economic impact on downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods than focusing all waterfront efforts on the Northbank/Southbank waterfronts. I really do believe that Hogans and McCoys Creek could became great recreational assets if we made it a priority to accomplish such a goal.

Still, expansive "greenspace" on the waterfront is spectacular.  Heavily used wherever it's properly implemented, and truly a great "public" use.

No disagreement here.  To accomplish "spectacular" that means it needs a well connected outer square just as much as worrying about what takes place within it.