Mayor Brown to Invest $9 Million in Downtown

[Cheshire Cat]

We are in agreement about the "exact" type of ground game and I do believe it is our different thinking patterns and ways of expressing them that have created some confusion here.  That's okay though.  I am doing my best to negotiate the various perspectives of the posters here because I think everyone's views are important.  For me this is all about a better Jacksonville.

[Cheshire Cat]

No, I am not saying this Stephen, not at all. I want to be clear about that. 

I will say that for someone like me who is used to talking face to face with folk, these online exchanges can truly be taxing.  Without the facial expressions and inflections in voice I am finding it is indeed difficult to be understood with accuracy, especially in the cases of issues that are of great importance to each of us. I am happy for the opportunity to clarify my meaning in the case of doubt.  I know I speak in a matter of fact tone in person, that may come across differently in a forum setting.  I find that even using smilies does not seem to help much. lol

[simms3]

^^^Umm Amen?  Diane I actually understood exactly what you were saying from the start, which is why I'm confused as to why some posters misinterpreted...but then I have to remember that I'm misinterpreted 90+% of the time and I myself misinterpret 90+% of the time.  I think online forums are very taxing...still undecided whether they are big time wasters or not.  I find myself drawn to them too often, and it is too easy when you're often the only soul in the office!  I usually just want to talk numbers because that's all I know, but I'm pretty much alone there on this board.

You have a unique political perspective which very few on this board have; would be interested in hearing your take on how backroom and real estate politics works in Jacksonville as compared to other places.  I mean it's pretty much standard across any industry, especially real estate, for backroom deals to be made and alliances formed, etc etc.  It's truly an industry of who you know in every sense (though I find it to be a real brain/finance industry, too, something not really apparent in Jacksonville real estate).

How would a variance request go down in Jacksonville?  Is there a deep connection between the city, JTA, and preferred developers?  Do local boys get special treatment over an outside group trying to do the same thing?  What's the gift giving situation like?  Who's wining and dining who...and where's the spot now?  Would you say there are people receiving kickbacks or undisclosed gifts/contributions?  This seems to be a global phenomenon, but what keeps the Jacksonville real estate circle so small, inbred, and so unsophisticated?  Many cities had small tight knit real estate circles for generations, especially the big cities like Boston and San Francisco.  I will say, though, there's something a little more respectable about a Mr. Walter Shorenstein or a Robert Tishman or a Sam Zell than a Jeff Spence of TriLegacy Group (of Shipyards fame...someone who has never built a building was honestly going to be master developer of a nearly $1B project in a tertiary market?  only such quack gets proposed in Miami...look at the Genting mixed-use casino failure!  LoL Talk about putting all your chips in a basket with holes!) or a Toney Sleiman of strip mall fame.  Even Charlotte has respectable developer dynasties, along with Nashville and now more recently Austin.  Cameron Kuhn from Orlando went the FL way...in on a helicopter and out with no money!  LoL  It's hilarious the stuff people smoke down in FL...maybe someday Jacksonville will get a real smart guy who gets it and can actually build something legitimate without bankrupting the city and himself in the process.  Ok...wow these rants make me realize how bad I make the city look.

Ok Diane, please spill the beans on politics and real estate as you see it in Jacksonville.  Why is the Civic Council so gung ho on this $9MM (which is chump change for basically getting anything done)?  Steve Halverson...president of Haskell.  They build a lot of garages.  Could this mean the $9M goes to a project that requires another garage that 99% chance gets rewarded to Haskell?

For the record, new federal guidelines as enacted by Frank Dodd for instance heavily regulate any sophisticated invesment vehicles, public or private.  My private firm, which is run by a small group of principals who act as advisers to a series of funds in their name, essentially, most of which have exclusively offshore investors, must report any and all activities to SEC, which in fact just audited us as procedure (we passed).  Very difficult to give gifts...must even report taking the president of a university or hospital out to lunch as a gift!  I have to report all stocks I buy/sell do to my potential inside knowldge of a vast array of firms...and I'm just an analyst at a private securities syndicator!

Anyway, I digress...the world of kickbacks and backroom deals seems to forever be around, but it's much more heavily scrutinized now...is that the case in Jacksonville?  Is it becoming more transparent?  I know Miami is one of the least transparent cities ever ever conceived...not many domestic players/developers down there, almost all foreign.  To us, they can have it!  They all get burned.

[Cheshire Cat]

@ Lake

^^^Yes, all good places the city can pump money.  2 quandaries, though:

1) The city has proven itself to be inept at handling money, investing money, partnering, or generally just doing its own homework

2) The private sector has an even worse track record in Jacksonville.  I do not have faith that the "Civic Council" will make a meaningful difference here.

So then what do we do?  Honestly...until someone playing in this arena (i.e. Civic Council, local developer, city leader) speaks up and proves they have a brain and will be a good steward of public trust and will ensure the money is funneled to a plan or project they have provided input on, one that actually sounds reasonable and fitting to the market (and one that has also been tried and tested and proven elsewhere under similar circumstances), I will not wish the city to spend another dime.

There's an asset I work on that we paid too much for and are pumping even more money into.  It is my argument that we should do nothing and ride the known and stable in-place revenue streams without worrying about spending a fortune for an incremental pop.  The city should look at using the same strategy (something it hasn't ever tried).

The city should maybe quit worrying about micro-managing downtown development, and instead focus on the big picture items such as schools, safety, and economic growth (solid economic growth, something the city has yet to learn how to foster).  There is nothing better for a Central Business District than solid business, which has bled out of downtown for decades now.

The Civic Council has been around for 2 years officially, and many more years unofficially or under separate name before that.  Someone remind me something tangible that has come about through this group.

To some degree I believe the folks here on MJ are the voice speaking up that will change past dynamics and views of what happens downtown.  This is due to the growing number of folks with expertise in a variety of the areas that impact growth in a community that are weighing in with ideas, facts and insight.  Jacksonville has always had a group of individuals who were willing to speak up about issues but their efforts were generally independent and getting attention and the ear of those in leadership was often a very difficult task.  The reach of this forum is changing that in increments. 

[Cheshire Cat]

To your last post Simms, there is much I could say and likely will overtime.  However I do believe that part of the answer to what you were asking with regard to how Jacksonville does business can be found in a statement by xplanner on the mobility thread which was:

The only people there on Monday to promote construction job creation were paid lobbyists, and way in the back of the room, their clients, who are not construction people at all but land speculators and entitlements merchants.

I believe that it is of paramount importance for those who want to change the tide in Jacksonville to understand how Jacksonville's politics and special interest machine works because this is what drives everything else here.  This is why I mentioned it on this thread.

I don't want to derail the conversation about what should be done with this money downtown and hope others will speak up about how the 9 million could best be used in our city.  Ennis made an important comparison in his earlier post.  Tacachle stated he would like to see the Laura Trio pursued but did not say why.  I think that it is important to define what the best use of funding is in order to have the best possible result when it comes to stimulating downtown. 

Is is my understanding that a bid has been placed on the Laura Trio, but I have not yet heard what the plans of the bidder are for the Trio.  I am guessing many here may know that.  I am also interested in the idea of public spaces and how that influences what happens in the core.  Often there is discussion about residential downtown, but honestly I am not sure that is a magic bullet either. 

I am suggesting that some review be made of the many good ideas offered here on downtown and then having visited those thoughts, perhaps an independent plan and view via this site for the core.  For instance the piece here that spoke to the decline of downtown as a result of industry and transportation.  I think Ennis penned that one.  It was excellent in it's ability to explain the decline along with the article that showed old Jacksonville photo's overlaid with elements in the core.  If we take a hard look at how we got here, we can also have a reasonable chance of understanding how to step out of the mistakes and weaknesses in the core and go forward in a way that will benefit all of Jacksonville

[Tacachale]

Well Diane, I think we can all agree that any project that receives public money needs to be planned for the maximum positive impact and return on investment. Where we disagree is where the projects come from and if that even matters. In short, my position is, I don't care if a project is thought up by a "mover and shaker" or channeled into the administration's office by Lord Ashtar of the Galactic Command, if it's a good public investment and a good project for downtown, I'm for it; if it's not, I'm again' it.

I said I'd like some money put toward the Laura Street Trio out of a desire to see these four significant buildings saved and this key intersection activated. I don't know what (feasible) specific plans are there now, whatever it is needs to be vetted, but I'd hope that some of this money in conjunction with the standing incentives could spark something. As for residential, I'd hardly call it a "silver bullet". I'd say no individual residential project is a silver bullet, they should all be seen as part of a multi-decade and multi-project strategy to increase the residential downtown.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well Diane, I think we can all agree that any project that receives public money needs to be planned for the maximum positive impact and return on investment. Where we disagree is where the projects come from and if that even matters. In short, my position is, I don't care if a project is thought up by a "mover and shaker" or channeled into the administration's office by Lord Ashtar of the Galactic Command, if it's a good public investment and a good project for downtown, I'm for it; if it's not, I'm again' it.

I said I'd like some money put toward the Laura Street Trio out of a desire to see these four significant buildings saved and this key intersection activated. I don't know what (feasible) specific plans are there now, whatever it is needs to be vetted, but I'd hope that some of this money in conjunction with the standing incentives could spark something. As for residential, I'd hardly call it a "silver bullet". I'd say no individual residential project is a silver bullet, they should all be seen as part of a multi-decade and multi-project strategy to increase the residential downtown.

It would be nice if you would lift the needle on that record you are playing when it comes to repeating your belief that I have a problem with where an idea or project originates.  I do not.  Not sure how to say it more plainly than that.  lol  I do however think it is important that everyone is "educated" as to the who, when, why and where some things happen in this city.  Reflecting on the Mellow Mushroom deal in Avondale would be an example at one level of influence of folks with money and connections.  Reflecting on the Moratorium debate is yet another example, at another level of the influence of special interests and their funding, in this case to employ lobbyists.  I am making no overall judgement with regard to who does what in Jacksonville but rather am simply pointing out the field of play in our city and the fact that it is not level most of the time.  In some ways simply accepting the current standards for doing business in our town might also be discouraging some of the most creative, ingenious and interesting projects from the core in favor of things like parking lots, which have become their own kind of blight. 

Now with regard to the Laura Street Trio I am a major fan of restoration of historic structures and would love to see those buildings alive and adding to the vitality and energy of the core.  I also well understand the need for downtown residential but think it may receive too much attention in the revitalization discussion.  Our downtown retail is weak and I can't help but believe that some of the needed changes in the core may have to come from organic changes, some of which can be spawned by thoughtful investment in the core.  For example, how many empty retail spaces do we have downtown?  How can those be filled?  Would it be reasonable to ask that those who own those spaces adjust their rental requirements to make it more feasible for start up and expanding businesses?  Would incentives for reduced licensing, deposits on utilities and the like help with that?  Tax abatement for folks moving to the core or other financial motivations?  We need to put focus on using what we currently have and how that can be made viable along with ideas for new development.

If we look at our downtown currently the statement we are making is greatly impacted by that mammoth, horrible overpriced Courthouse, with a life expectancy of 50 years mind you, that blots the landscape.  A building which I personally find downright unappealing and made worse by the fact that outside walk areas have been reduced to "goat paths" as some call them.  Tied into that monstrosity, are the various other governmental offices in the core.

The other very large influence and statement is the abundance of homeless outreach programs and facilities.  Discussion of this issue often becomes one about the moral aspects of the services and treatment of the homeless population.  Frankly, I don't think many people are of the mind that services and attention to the homeless is a wasteful endeavor.  The fact remains that we have a greater number of facilities to address the needs of this segment of our population in downtown.  Many more than other communities have in their entire city or county, Clay Co. being a prime example.  Inadvertently, the result of efforts to help is that we have created a situation that greatly impacts our downtown and how it is perceived.  This takes me back to some hit and miss discussions about the possible relocation of these independent efforts to an area that is outside the core yet accessible to transportation.  There was a great to do by the Mayor and administration regarding a "day center" for the homeless and then absolute silence.  Is it open?  Is it working? Is it enough?

I would also be interested to know how folks view the Landing in this equation.  As much as people dis it as a downtown draw, it is consistently where folks gather and events are held that get National attention. 

There is so much to discuss and the input of everyone will be needed to inspire and direct the changes coming to Jacksonville.

[Tacachale]

^Record? Needle? What's that?  

[Cheshire Cat]

^Record? Needle? What's that?  

A quaint form of "Ancient Technology" created by early cave men.  I believe the first big record release at the time was the hit "Alley Oop"! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Q-ZE_Y6es

Note: It has also been rumored that it was during this period that the first edition of "Times Union" rolled off the rock press.