AG Holder Finds President can Kill US Citizens on US Soil

[NotNow]

Adam,

The White House has made that claim.  Read the following:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&pagewanted=print

Lengthy, but a good overview of the Presidents role in the drone strike program from his own administration.

[NotNow]

I believe Stephen & Notnow are both actually on the same sides, but are in fact way too apologetic for their parties they believe in so strongly. Sure, there's varying degrees of which turd stinks less (which is what you guys are always arguing about), but ultimately both Presidents aren't that different.

If Obama was so interested in "walking back" things like the Patriot Act, NDAA & things of that sort, he sure has a funny way of going about it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/president-obama-congress-passes-bill-extend-patriot-act-sen-rand-paul-delay-article-1.144631

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/02/president-obama-signed-the-national-defense-authorization-act-now-what/

http://www.businessinsider.com/unbelievable-obama-administration-has-already-appealed-ndaa-ruling-2012-9

http://www.salon.com/2010/09/08/obama_138/

Like I said, both sides quibbling with each other is mostly a distraction & does nothing. Everyone, on both sides, have to come to the realization that most of these people aren't here for you, the country & its leaders no longer work for you, aren't your buddies, and are mostly interested in keeping it business as usual. That means war, that means fighting "terror", spying, taking away more of your rights, letting big business write the laws, keeping the rackets going, etc. So on his one hand while Obama is finding ways of stroking the base by talking about equal rights for gays in an inaugural speech, he's punching everyone in the metaphorical dick with the other hand. Men, women, gays, straights, white, black & brown.

Is there any doubt of this that's actually based in reality, and not just what someone "says" they may or may not do? I'd love to see it.

I don't think I'm being apoligetic to any party.  I have clearly stated that I support President Obama in his prosecution of this war.  And I am certainly not a Democrat.  My point, which you have eloquently stated, is that President Obama has prosecuted the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a very similar way that the Bush administration had done.  He has even expanded the lethality via the drone strikes.  And yet so many who participated in the name calling are now silent.  That is hypocricy. 

The thread, however, is about a completely different subject...using similar techniques, or even justifying, assassination on US soil.  The first response from Mr. Holder was vague and simply said "yes, the President CAN order such a thing".  Mr. Holder and the administration have since modified that statement.  I believe it deserves honest discussion.  What is the policy of using such a decision?  Does the executive branch even have such power under the US Constitution?  As Senator Paul pointed out, these are pretty important questions.

[Adam W]

Adam,

The White House has made that claim.  Read the following:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&pagewanted=print

Lengthy, but a good overview of the Presidents role in the drone strike program from his own administration.

Thanks, NotNow.

I guess it comes down to interpretation. I did read the article and it appears that he is presented with the nominated targets and then signs off on the nominations - so he makes the ultimate decision. So yes, in a sense could  say he picks the target. But my point was that others are actually picking the people and he's approving them, which is what seems to be happening.

I'm no fan of the President, but I am glad to see he's taking responsibility for something so serious.

[peestandingup]

I believe Stephen & Notnow are both actually on the same sides, but are in fact way too apologetic for their parties they believe in so strongly. Sure, there's varying degrees of which turd stinks less (which is what you guys are always arguing about), but ultimately both Presidents aren't that different.

If Obama was so interested in "walking back" things like the Patriot Act, NDAA & things of that sort, he sure has a funny way of going about it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/president-obama-congress-passes-bill-extend-patriot-act-sen-rand-paul-delay-article-1.144631

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/02/president-obama-signed-the-national-defense-authorization-act-now-what/

http://www.businessinsider.com/unbelievable-obama-administration-has-already-appealed-ndaa-ruling-2012-9

http://www.salon.com/2010/09/08/obama_138/

Like I said, both sides quibbling with each other is mostly a distraction & does nothing. Everyone, on both sides, have to come to the realization that most of these people aren't here for you, the country & its leaders no longer work for you, aren't your buddies, and are mostly interested in keeping it business as usual. That means war, that means fighting "terror", spying, taking away more of your rights, letting big business write the laws, keeping the rackets going, etc. So on his one hand while Obama is finding ways of stroking the base by talking about equal rights for gays in an inaugural speech, he's punching everyone in the metaphorical dick with the other hand. Men, women, gays, straights, white, black & brown.

Is there any doubt of this that's actually based in reality, and not just what someone "says" they may or may not do? I'd love to see it.

I don't think I'm being apoligetic to any party.  I have clearly stated that I support President Obama in his prosecution of this war.  And I am certainly not a Democrat.  My point, which you have eloquently stated, is that President Obama has prosecuted the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in a very similar way that the Bush administration had done.  He has even expanded the lethality via the drone strikes.  And yet so many who participated in the name calling are now silent.  That is hypocrisy. 

I agree, but its the same on both sides. Not you in particular, but Bush supporters were mostly silent back in the day too. Now they've all got their panties in a twist. Is it a sudden awakening, or the same type of hypocrisy?? My money is on the latter.

[NotNow]

I can't argue with that , the R's have their share of hypocrites as well.  I apologize for the bickering with StephenDare!, I should know better.

[spuwho]

Obama, seems to do what he wants and then tries to convince people otherwise. A kind of narcissistic approach to leadership, uses blame redirection as a kind of political outhouse, where he can relieve himself of the responsibility.

Post presidency, he should author a book, either "Narcissistic Leadership for Dummies", or "Never Question the Boss".

[I-10east]

I don't agree with John McCain on virtually anything, but even he thought that US soil droning question that Rand Paul asked was ridiculous.

[NotNow]

I'll repeat my question:

With your vast non-experience, how would you advise the President to prosecute the war in Afghanistan?  Assuming you still don't want to hurt or kill anyone.

So thats your answer?

You were completely wrong. or lying or worse.

To enforce your incorrect point of view you hysterically called people names and tried to rely on your alleged 'experience' as a cop during the Bush wars in Iraq, and this is your strategy?

Change points of view on a dime and then pretend you don't hear any of the questions?

Well Im sorry Notnow.  You appear to have lied about torture, and you were for it anyways.  You were for the policies set in place by Bush that Obama is continuing---to the dismay of many including myself.

You don't get to criticize.  This is your policy, your world, your preferred method of conducting our public affairs.

Perhaps you can weep for the country now, but you didnt then.

So, its interesting you have criticisms, but its kindof like a prostitutes opinion on chastity isnt it?

Interesting, of course.  But not very shipworthy.

Well of course very little of that makes any sense. 

It was not an answer.  It was a question...for you.   Your memory of our discussions on the subject is as distorted as your logic.  I have not "lied" about anything.   I have stood by my view.  Your "hysterical" defense of your lack of experience and your desparate attack on my military service do not change the facts.  The President that you drooled over on these pages is killing the very people that you called President Bush every name in the book because he allowed them to be uncomfortable.  Yet you remain silent unless I press you about it.   None of the other posters who screamed "torture" seem to have a voice anymore either.  I'm not "crying for my country" over this issue.  I don't care if Obama continues the Bush policies or if he continues to kill people who are actively trying to kill Americans.  I'm the one who has not change positions.  I supported Bush then and I support Obama keeping those Bush policies.  I also understand his move to assassination v. the enhanced interrogations (the "torture" that so infuriates you) and I support his program.   

And your wrong, I DO get to criticize.  I am doing so now, in answer to your personal attacks against me.  I have pointed out your hypocrisy on assassiation, invading another country, and bombing cities.  It is just OK when YOUR President does it.  Or at least you will keep loyally quiet about it like a good little peaseant. 

I started this thread because AG Holder bluntly stated that the President had the right to kill Americans on US soil using missles and/or drones.  I disagree.  Mr. Holder has since said  the President can not kill an American on US soil who is not actively endangering lives.   A much more thought out position.  Of course, it still leaves open the thought that the President has the "power" to kill a citizen inside our borders.  I think this deserves further discussion, but instead I have wasted three pages on your personal attacks against me in an amatuerish attempt to hide your own hypocrisy. 

On a side note, you have stated publicly and in PM many times that it is against the policy of MetroJacksonville to call other posters "Liar".  Has that policy changed?   Can YOU now be called a "Liar"?

[NotNow]

I'll repeat my question:

With your vast non-experience, how would you advise the President to prosecute the war in Afghanistan?  Assuming you still don't want to hurt or kill anyone.

So thats your answer?

You were completely wrong. or lying or worse.

To enforce your incorrect point of view you hysterically called people names and tried to rely on your alleged 'experience' as a cop during the Bush wars in Iraq, and this is your strategy?

Change points of view on a dime and then pretend you don't hear any of the questions?

Well Im sorry Notnow.  You appear to have lied about torture, and you were for it anyways.  You were for the policies set in place by Bush that Obama is continuing---to the dismay of many including myself.

You don't get to criticize.  This is your policy, your world, your preferred method of conducting our public affairs.

Perhaps you can weep for the country now, but you didnt then.

So, its interesting you have criticisms, but its kindof like a prostitutes opinion on chastity isnt it?

Interesting, of course.  But not very shipworthy.

Well of course very little of that makes any sense. 

It was not an answer.  It was a question...for you.   Your memory of our discussions on the subject is as distorted as your logic.  I have not "lied" about anything.   I have stood by my view.  Your "hysterical" defense of your lack of experience and your desparate attack on my military service do not change the facts.  The President that you drooled over on these pages is killing the very people that you called President Bush every name in the book because he allowed them to be uncomfortable.  Yet you remain silent unless I press you about it.   None of the other posters who screamed "torture" seem to have a voice anymore either.  I'm not "crying for my country" over this issue.  I don't care if Obama continues the Bush policies or if he continues to kill people who are actively trying to kill Americans. 

And your wrong, I DO get to criticize.  I am doing so now, in answer to your personal attacks against me.  I have pointed out your hypocrisy on assassiation, invading another country, and bombing.  It is just OK when YOUR President does it.  Or at least you will keep loyally quiet about it like a good little peaseant. 

I started this thread because AG Holder bluntly stated that the President had the right to kill Americans on US soil using missles and/or drones.  I disagree.  Mr. Holder has since said  the President can not kill an American on US soil who is not actively endangering lives.   A much more thought out position.  Of course, it still leaves open the thought that the President has the "power" to kill a citizen inside our borders.  I think this deserves further discussion, but instead I have wasted three pages on your personal attacks against me in an amatuerish attempt to hide your own hypocrisy. 

On a side note, you have stated publicly and in PM many times that it is against the policy of MetroJacksonville to call other posters "Liar".  Has that policy changed?   Can YOU now be called a "Liar"?

Sorry, notnow.  Your opinion is literally worthless.  Until you can explain why you claimed that the US did not engage in torture, and why you called people liars and questioned their patriotism, and now you claim the same thing, your opinion is literally not worth the electricity it took for you to type these messages.

In fact, you suppported W. Bush's 'non enemy combatant' category that you now disagree with.  Another sea change in your alleged 'beliefs'.

curiouser and curiouser.

That's a nice little declaration.   Pretend like what you say has any bearing on anything.  You not only misrepresent the facts, you don't even understand what the critical factors are in this discussion or even what the facts themselves are.  The next time you want to tell me what I support, or have supported, post a reference.  You have a proven history of "misstating" what other posters have said. 

Speaking of experience, seriously, you should stick to subjects that you have some comprehension of.

You keep mentioning "liars".  Is it, or is it not the policy of MetroJacksonville not to allow posters to call other posters "liar"? 

[NotNow]

Making people uncomfortable is not torture in my opinion.  But if I am using the dictionary definition:

Definition of TORTURE
1a : anguish of body or mind : agony b : something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

then I must honestly concede that the enhanced interrogation techniques caused "anguish of mind".

I thought it obvious to any thinking person the differences between the "torture" such as that suffered by our POW's in N. Vietnam and Iraq that caused serious bodily injury and deformation to our fighting men v. the procedures that you call "torture" that was utilized in enhanced interrogations.   I was wrong in assuming others could see that.  I was wrong in assuming that others would not seize on terminology and innuendo for political gain. 

I would point out that the two or three individuals who were "waterboarded" lived without any mental or physical repercussions.  Supposedly to await trail for murdering thousands of American citizens.  Just killing them seems to quiet the criticism from Democrats though.  It has certainly quieted the Democrats on this site.

Your being an "idiot" is something that you have made up in your own mind.  You deal with it.

I will ask one more time before it is obvious that you are simply refusing to answer.  Is it, or is it not, the policy of MJ not to allow posters to call each other "liar"?   

[NotNow]

Can you read?  Or answer questions?   It is obvious that your intent is to twist truth into some kind of political knot that makes you feel better about yourself.  The facts are as plain as the nose on your face.  No insults or ignoring your own rules can change the truth.   Your refusal to answer questions and your refusal to even acknowledge your own position tells us all we need to know.