Mayor Brown to Invest $9 Million in Downtown

[Cheshire Cat]

Let's talk about the politics behind this money for downtown in an effort to decide where and how the 9 million for downtown should be spent for the impact to the core to be a lasting one and not just "piggy bank" money for certain developers or influential people.  We cannot afford to throw good money after bad into downtown.

For instance, below we have a letter sent to TU by a well known developer and member of the Civic Council (formerly known as the "Nifty Fifty") in support of the 9 million for downtown.  As is often the case with some of these "well known" individuals, their correspondence and views of a Jacksonville issue will generally get published.  That is not the case for most citizens.  The support for downtown from this individual is not a surprise.

So why visit politics in this instance some may ask?  Take the money and run others may feel.  While I understand the desire for downtown improvements and in fact do support funding to improve the core it is important to know the politics behind the funding to insure that the dollars are spent in an equitable and reasonable fashion.  What should concern citizens is the 9 million for downtown has been presented without a plan. No Plan!  Just a huge chunk of money waiting to be divided up and spent.  But how, to what end for what projects?  The people and taxpayers should be asking this question.

For instance, many are now realizing that the support Alvin Brown received from some Republican movers and shakers during his run for office had little to do with non partisan politics and everything to do with directing funding to downtown. This is where one can find the interests of many of these self same "movers and shakers" who are looking for a financial boost to bolster their visions and investments in the core.  Alvin received his marching orders and he delivered to those who helped put him in office by coming up with 11 million dollars, 9 for downtown.  This after a knock down drag out fight over a failing city budget attacking pensions, library closings, turning off of streetlights, mowing issues and the like.  Many average citizens will look at this and wonder.  The movers and shakers who know how politics work will see the funds as what they are, "return on investment."  In this situation the investment was the hundreds of thousands of dollars pumped into Brown's election.  This is how the game of politics works and it should be an ever present reality in the minds of individuals who fight for a better Jacksonville and better downtown, who are without the influence but often superior in planning, creative visioning and experience. 

Currently the DIA has put out some "test" statements about where they want this money to go.  That apparently is "Laura Street".  My question to all who read this and especially to those who have done extensive research into downtown planning, transport and the like is "Where should this money go to have the most impact and stimulate downtown?"  Is Laura Street the place or somewhere else in the core?  The citizens should have a good deal of input into this effort as the money is our tax dollars.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/mike-clark/2013-03-11/civic-council-supports-funding-downtown

[simms3]

Good points Diane.  I would rather the city not spend $9MM if it's not going to do it right.  Wish Mr. Halverson provided more opinion on where that money should go instead of the usual Civic Council drumline that "All great cities have great downtowns".

Who knows where the money should go, but apparently city leaders in Nashville and Charlotte know precisely how to incentivize development.  Those trips to Indy and KC were a waste..much cheaper trips to closer cities who used to be the same exact size and in the same boat would have sufficed.

[kreger]

@ Diane, is there any chance that you will be running for city office in 2015? I don't really know you, but I'm always very impressed with what you have to say. My quick Google search suggested that you had ran in the past and I'm curious if you would consider doing so again.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well it would be a run against Jim Love.  lol   The truth is it would depend upon my health which has been problematic as of late and why you don't see me out and about more.  Thank you kindly for the words of support. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Good points Diane.  I would rather the city not spend $9MM if it's not going to do it right.  Wish Mr. Halverson provided more opinion on where that money should go instead of the usual Civic Council drumline that "All great cities have great downtowns".

Who knows where the money should go, but apparently city leaders in Nashville and Charlotte know precisely how to incentivize development.  Those trips to Indy and KC were a waste..much cheaper trips to closer cities who used to be the same exact size and in the same boat would have sufficed.

Exactly Simms.  There was a time in the history of this city that "sound bites" about growth etc were enough.  That is rapidly changing.  The general public has had enough of waste and promises.  That does not mean they are against growth or change.  What it does mean is they want sensible and meaningful growth with viable plans of action that back up promises with facts.  A new day for Jacksonville is dawning in this regard.

[Tacachale]

Diane, that's a far too cynical take. Of course we need to see some planning regarding how this money is used and we can't just throw money into half-baked projects. But the fact that some "influential people" or "movers and shakers" desire or benefit from downtown investments should be the absolute least of our concerns. There's no reason to assume that because private interests stand to benefit from an investment in the core that the money is wasted, far from it. In fact, it's a hugely positive step over years past that so many private interests recognize the benefit of developing downtown. Our concern here should be ensuring the money is put towards beneficial uses, and that's done through planning and education, not keeping it away from the very people committed to downtown's growth.

[Cheshire Cat]

Cynicism doesn't figure into my statement or emotional mindset in this post Tacachale.   Experience in this community, as well as the quirky realities of local politics does. My past experiences as a city official in South Florida and co-owner of two large building developmental enterprises back in the day also have a lot to do with what I know happens in backrooms in various communities throughout our state.   It happens everywhere, but whether you realize it or not, Jacksonville has often served as a "piggy bank" for those who know how politics and city finances work.  We no longer have the luxury of simply hoping that funds are spent for good works downtown, we need to make sure that they are.  At no point did I venture to say that the money should be kept from anyone in particular but that expenditures should be well thought through as well as some attention paid to who get's our tax money invested in their efforts. I will however say that even nice guys and gals will work a system given the chance.

I am guessing that you know many of the people in this community who are considered the "movers and shakers" through your father and his relationships.  The truth of powerful people and politics is that different faces are shown to different people. You likely have yet to go head to head with any of them over an issue and likely never will.  Until that happens, you may not see the value of knowing the who's and why's behind certain endeavors and why some things seem one way on the surface and are something else underneath. 

I am in no way suggesting that all the folks who are interested in the core are not sincere. I am saying that some are sincerely looking after their own interests. lol   I am neither suggesting that all moneys spent there have been wasted, but great amounts of it have not show us value. "Hello Shipyards!" The truth of the matter remains that millions upon millions have been expended downtown and the core still struggles.  Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by weighing in on how the 9 million is spent downtown.  I am simply saying that a serious look needs to be taken about what should go where downtown to get the most bang for the buck and open up the playing field for others who may have an interest in downtown as well as the well known local players.

Now, my question above was to inquire how forum members and others may think funding for downtown would best be utilized?  Laura Street as the DIA is suggesting or something else?  Which prompts me to mention the 3 million round-about at the Landing.  Tac, was that money well spent in your estimation?  I think not and don't see how it added to Laura Street appeal unless the bumpy ride is to be considered entertainment.  

[thelakelander]

Now, my question above was to inquire how forum members and others may think funding for downtown would best be utilized?

This is a good question.  Right off the bat, I think most assumed leverage this money to help private projects get off the ground.  However, another view is to invest it within the public realm in a manner that attracts private dollars.  For example, do you invest in fixing Hemming Plaza (public realm), opening the Landing's courtyard to Laura Street (public/private) or putting it into the Laura Trio (private)?  All options have their good points.

[Tacachale]

The dangers of assuming too much about other people become apparent when you start guessing that I have any kind of connections or influence whatsoever. If you poll anyone who isn't my wife and dog, and perhaps the Underbelly bar staff, you'll see just how mistaken that is.

Seriously though, what I'm saying is that a beneficial project is a beneficial project, and a bad project is a bad project; the fact that private interests may be behind it is behind it is irrelevant. You're implying that if some "mover and shaker" stands to benefit from a project (or supports it) then it's necessarily a bad deal for the city. Yes, that's cynical, and I don't buy it. Honestly, it's much more frequently been the case that money is wasted due to half-baked planning than some conspiracy. For instance, I don't know what nefarious brick mogul you think benefited from the Laura roundabout, but the real reason it was a waste is because it was a dumb idea from the drafting table. On the other hand, in the same project, the Laura facade grants were a great project, and that did nothing but benefit businesses and property owners - and thereby the whole street.

[Tacachale]

Now, my question above was to inquire how forum members and others may think funding for downtown would best be utilized?

This is a good question.  Right off the bat, I think most assumed leverage this money to help private projects get off the ground.  However, another view is to invest it within the public realm in a manner that attracts private dollars.  For example, do you invest in fixing Hemming Plaza (public realm), opening the Landing's courtyard to Laura Street (public/private) or putting it into the Laura Trio (private)?  All options have their good points.

If it were up to me I'd put it towards the Trio, if it would really make a difference. I'd also like to see some new residential - and that damn clock to come back. I don't know about the Landing.

[simms3]

@ Lake

^^^Yes, all good places the city can pump money.  2 quandaries, though:

1) The city has proven itself to be inept at handling money, investing money, partnering, or generally just doing its own homework

2) The private sector has an even worse track record in Jacksonville.  I do not have faith that the "Civic Council" will make a meaningful difference here.

So then what do we do?  Honestly...until someone playing in this arena (i.e. Civic Council, local developer, city leader) speaks up and proves they have a brain and will be a good steward of public trust and will ensure the money is funneled to a plan or project they have provided input on, one that actually sounds reasonable and fitting to the market (and one that has also been tried and tested and proven elsewhere under similar circumstances), I will not wish the city to spend another dime.

There's an asset I work on that we paid too much for and are pumping even more money into.  It is my argument that we should do nothing and ride the known and stable in-place revenue streams without worrying about spending a fortune for an incremental pop.  The city should look at using the same strategy (something it hasn't ever tried).

The city should maybe quit worrying about micro-managing downtown development, and instead focus on the big picture items such as schools, safety, and economic growth (solid economic growth, something the city has yet to learn how to foster).  There is nothing better for a Central Business District than solid business, which has bled out of downtown for decades now.

The Civic Council has been around for 2 years officially, and many more years unofficially or under separate name before that.  Someone remind me something tangible that has come about through this group.

[spuwho]

Here is a novel approach....

Do a few things really well instead of trying to do everything at once in a mediocre way.

Everyone is looking for the silver bullet, how about just doing one thing with exception?

[Cheshire Cat]

Seriously though, what I'm saying is that a beneficial project is a beneficial project, and a bad project is a bad project; the fact that private interests may be behind it is behind it is irrelevant. You're implying that if some "mover and shaker" stands to benefit from a project (or supports it) then it's necessarily a bad deal for the city. Yes, that's cynical, and I don't buy it. Honestly, it's much more frequently been the case that money is wasted due to half-baked planning than some conspiracy. For instance, I don't know what nefarious brick mogul you think benefited from the Laura roundabout, but the real reason it was a waste is because it was a dumb idea from the drafting table. On the other hand, in the same project, the Laura facade grants were a great project, and that did nothing but benefit businesses and property owners - and thereby the whole street.

You are incorrect on all counts Tacachale, but that is okay.  I can tell you if I have something to say, I won't imply it, but will come right out and state it.  lol  The whole of my previous posts was simply to point out to everyone that in order to accomplish goals and understand much of what goes on in this city and development you have to understand the politics, power players and lobbyists.  Beginning and end of that story. 

Ennis, I would agree with your overall statement in that there are a number of ways to invest the funds depending upon the projected outcome and what people may think will create the most interest downtown.  If we talk the trio, how much money would be needed to do what in those buildings?  Will 9 million come close to making those projects doable and will the impact downtown be that great?  I honestly don't know right now and am intrigued by the possibilities of improvements to public spaces as well.

[Cheshire Cat]

Not sure I fully understand your comment Stephen, but it is late.

I certainly am not claiming that those working on any project for downtown be without blemish and that is not at all what I am suggesting, that is simply unrealistic.  It isn't unrealistic in my view to be aware of the hows and whys that are behind some deals just so that one can make good decisions for the entire community.  Goodness gracious I sometimes fail to realize how a commentary can head off in an unintended direction.  lol  I am certainly also not against people benefiting from public projects and don't remember claiming that I was.  In fact someone benefiting is part and parcel with development of any kind, everyone gets that I do believe.  My point is, have a plan, know the plan and lets make sure that the plan is the best one for downtown. My previous posts were to shine a light on politics and downtown in order to predicate the query as to what the folks on this forum and in the general public may think would have the most impact on downtown? Is it what the DIA want's or something else altogether.  We can set the discussion about motive for anyone's involvement aside at this point, because that is not germane to the fact that the money will be spent in the end.  It is reasonable to question what the millions are spent on downtown and how those projects may or may not be of the most benefit to the core, when so much money has already been spent without the desired revitalization taking place.  I would imagine this would be of some concern for those who want a vibrant downtown and more money invested after time.  The best way to get more money into the core is to show what is spent there is spent creatively and with good insight and planning, in my opinion.

[Cheshire Cat]

Not sure I fully understand your comment Stephen, but it is late.

I certainly am not claiming that those working on any project for downtown be without blemish and that is not at all what I am suggesting, that is simply unrealistic.  It isn't unrealistic in my view to be aware of the hows and whys that are behind some deals just so that one can make good decisions for the entire community.  Goodness gracious I sometimes fail to realize how a commentary can head off in an unintended direction.  lol  I am certainly also no against people benefiting from public projects and don't remember claiming that I was.  In fact someone benefiting is part and parcel with development of any kind, everyone gets that I do believe.  My point is, have a plan, know the plan and lets make sure that the plan is the best one for downtown. 

Those were statements to predicate the query as to what the folks on this forum and in the general public may think would have the most impact on downtown.  We can set the discussion about motive aside at this point, because that is not germane to the fact that the money will be spent.  By whom for what projects is important and how those projects may or may not be of the most benefit I would imagine to be of some concern for those who want a vibrant downtown and more money invested after time.  The best way to get more money into the core is to show what is spent there is spent creatively and with good insight and planning, in my opinion.

I agree with your second paragraph, Diane.  I just think that we need to move beyond the idea that Who proposes something is more important than What is being proposed.

I think that the entire basis of that train of thought turns all public transactions into a game of mummery and revenge.  For example, I would hope that your enemies would let a project you are for come to pass simply because your project is a good idea and a worthy one.  Not exclude your ideas and projects because someone has a bone to pick with you.

In fact, if there is anything we learned from the age of dynamite, it was exactly this kind of ground game that almost destroyed the core altogether.  Bucky Clarkson and Jack Diamond working against each other behind the scenes.

Lets outgrow this hick town approach and move to a big city mentality on projects.

We are getting closer to a resolve of thinking here Stephen I do believe.  I don't know where I stated that something should not be done because of the person who is suggesting it.  Not sure where that idea originates unless it stems from my remarks about politics in this town, which I stand by and which I believe may have resulted in a lot of the "Argle Bargle" in quite a few past projects the city has been involved in.  Pardon me for borrowing your Diamond analogy/impression, which by the way I have always gotten a kick out of.