It might not get weirder than this

[Tacachale]

That's odd. Perhaps it's down to looking at the same thing through different lenses. There is no question about the poverty - though I'd think that is dependent on where in Cuba you are. "Hopelessness" is probably more subjective.

I think it's more down to looking at the things tourists see, versus the way things really are. Obviously this isn't unique to Cuba, but it's particularly divisive there. The Cubans I know aren't particularly happy about the lack of opportunity, restrictive government, and the economic system that makes almost everyone reliant on the black market and "parallel" market for even basic items.

However, Cuba has nothing on North Korea. Almost nowhere does.

[Adam W]

^I'm shocked.

[mbwright]

I'm surprised anyone in NK can actually reach Google.

[BridgeTroll]

I'm surprised anyone in NK can actually reach Google.

They can't...

[NotNow]

My friends who went to Cuba (usually on mission work) were appalled by the poverty and hopelessness of the people.   Hmmm.

For what it's worth, my dad and grandfather just got back from a two week trip all over Cuba. Said it was beautiful, the people were fantastic, seemed happy, culture was lively, etc etc.

On another note, I love how people in the US always point to Cuba and throw out words like "poverty" and "helpless"---look in the mirror at the US people!! How many millions do we have in poverty again? Probably more than Cuba has in total population.

Comparing "poverty" in the US to the destitution of the majority of Cubans is disingenuous, or ignorant, or both.  There is a reason that Roughly 10% of the population has risked their lives to flee the island.  Despite the liberal apologist agenda that is commonly peddled here, the desperation of so many Cuban citizens to seek a free and happier life speaks for itself.

[Adam W]

A significant number of Cuban refugees are economic migrants. And you can lay the blame for that (the poverty) squarely on the shoulders of the USA and its brilliant embargo. I'd also lay part of the blame for some of Castro's more repressive tendencies on the USA - whilst I don't think we can excuse his behaviour, I think his motivations can be understood if you realise he has been living under threat of assassination and counterrevolution since the 1950s. We know that USA has tried to kill him numerous times. We've even sponsored an actual invasion of the island.

I wonder how things would've turned out if we had tried a different path - engagement or rapprochement rather than antagonism?

[ben says]

Comparing "poverty" in the US to the destitution of the majority of Cubans is disingenuous, or ignorant, or both. 

Neither disingenuous nor ignorant. Comparing misery, no matter how relative, has all the same indicators, namely: economic and social mobility, quality of life, health care (Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world in the Western Hemisphere, by the way).

A significant number of Cuban refugees are economic migrants. And you can lay the blame for that (the poverty) squarely on the shoulders of the USA and its brilliant embargo. I'd also lay part of the blame for some of Castro's more repressive tendencies on the USA - whilst I don't think we can excuse his behaviour, I think his motivations can be understood if you realise he has been living under threat of assassination and counterrevolution since the 1950s. We know that USA has tried to kill him numerous times. We've even sponsored an actual invasion of the island.

I wonder how things would've turned out if we had tried a different path - engagement or rapprochement rather than antagonism?

Bingo!!!

[BridgeTroll]

No doubt... Kennedy and Johnson certainly set the precedent...

[spuwho]

(Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world in the Western Hemisphere, by the way).

Depends on how you measure "best". Based strictly on availability, yes, since it is available to all. But the quality is not close to Western standards. They ration much of the best resources.

There has been a distorted view of Cuban health care since Michael Moore made that movie.

If Hugo Chavez was a normal Cuban national from a backwater of Havana, he wouldn't be alive today.

[ChriswUfGator]

(Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world in the Western Hemisphere, by the way).

Depends on how you measure "best". Based strictly on availability, yes, since it is available to all. But the quality is not close to Western standards. They ration much of the best resources.

There has been a distorted view of Cuban health care since Michael Moore made that movie.

If Hugo Chavez was a normal Cuban national from a backwater of Havana, he wouldn't be alive today.

This country rations its healthcare resources worse than anything Cuba can dream up, a large chunk of it only has access to basic triage care at public emergency rooms (which can't turn them away due to inability to pay), and that's it. Try getting past the receptionist at any real general practitioner or specialists office without your checkbook or your health insurance card. The worst part is most of them have pictures all over the place of them volunteering at clinics in Africa or south America, but back home they run it like fort Knox, refusing anyone without insurance, and ignore the problems in their backyard.

We have this weird bifurcation going on in this country, generally with a certain conservative mindset, if someone is poor in the US, it must be their fault and too bad, but if someone's poor in some other country, then it's their government's fault and it's time to break out billions in foreign aid. That same bizarre weirdo mentality permeates the healthcare debate, and is going on in this thread as we speak.

[Adam W]

(Cuba has one of the best healthcare systems in the world in the Western Hemisphere, by the way).

Depends on how you measure "best". Based strictly on availability, yes, since it is available to all. But the quality is not close to Western standards. They ration much of the best resources.

There has been a distorted view of Cuban health care since Michael Moore made that movie.

If Hugo Chavez was a normal Cuban national from a backwater of Havana, he wouldn't be alive today.

I'll take the WHO's word for it, though - I never put much stock in anything Michael Moore had to say. But the WHO has consistently ranked the Cuban healthcare system quite highly.