Who will build the mass transit system?

[cityimrov]

A celestial miracle has occurred and the leadership of Jacksonville is ready to bring this city into the 21st century.  They are willing to invest in streetcars, skyway expansions, new buses, etc.  Now comes the question.  Who will build these for Jacksonville?

Will the system be built by locally grown companies which have never built a usable mass transit system?  Will the system be build by some overpriced firm with a big fancy name?   Will the city find the lowest possible builder for the system?

Which company out there is the Apple of mass transit?  Which is the Enron of mass transit?   Who does Jacksonville want to build the system? 

[thelakelander]

Are you asking if a private sector company will fund the construction of mass transit or for people to suggest specific contractors that could be hired?  If asking about contractors for construction, who knows at this point.  That's kind of putting the cart before the horse and you'll most likely have different players involved for different modes.  At this point, we still need to actually commit to improving mass transit.  There's been a lot of talk and studies, but no firm commitment to implement anything other than a few bus routes being sold as BRT.

[Charles Hunter]

Assuming government agencies would be funding these transit improvements - most certainly expanding the Skyway and new buses would be JTA - they would develop specification packages which private sector firms would bid on.  Since there are no local bus manufacturers, they would come from some - possibly international - firm.  It seems local construction contractors could have at least a piece of any Skyway expansion.  Right out of the gate, is there a local company that provides concrete beams?
As thelakelander has pointed out, a private firm could construct and operate a streetcar.  But I think this mode, too, will be built and operated by JTA.

Before construction, there needs to be design, and there are firms in Jacksonville that could take the lead on a design team, but there is expertise that (I don't think) exists within Jacksonville-based firms.

[Jason]

I'll build it.  Just write me a check 

[cityimrov]

That's kind of putting the cart before the horse and you'll most likely have different players involved for different modes.

I don't see anything wrong with speculating about it.

From what I've seen, the best way to destroy any public support for any transportation project is for it to be very late, come over budget, and have it not working correctly. 

[thelakelander]

Hmm..... if you can't stay focused to actually get something approved and off the ground, you don't get to the point where something comes in over budget or not working properly.  That's my basic point about putting the cart before the horse.

[JeffreyS]

That's kind of putting the cart before the horse and you'll most likely have different players involved for different modes.

I don't see anything wrong with speculating about it.

From what I've seen, the best way to destroy any public support for any transportation project is for it to be very late, come over budget, and have it not working correctly. 

A great way to get something built is to contract local big wigs to share in the project. Never underestimate the power putting the "Good ol Boys" on the government teat.  So start planning a project by looking at how you can put some coin in the local power brokers pockets.

Can Gate provide the concrete,
Can Gillman provide the lumber,
Can Sleiman build the stations,
Can Everbank finance the deal.

[thelakelander]

I assume this is if you intend to fund something 100% with local money and non-traditional planning/implementation....or pretty much recreating the wheel. The problem with going completely off the cuff is that you run a higher risk of screwing yourself big time.

If your intention is to compete for federal dollars, there's a process that must be followed and criteria that needs to be met, or else you'll never get the cash to get off the ground.  Also, this discussion is very general but exactly what are we talking about?  Building BRT, modifying the bus system, adding bus shelters, or stuff like implementing commuter rail, streetcar, LRT, etc.?  A great start to see how to get something off the ground and funding is to look outside of Duval at recent successful projects, like Orlando's Sunrail, Phoenix's LRT, Houston's LRT, Charlotte's LRT, Norfolk's LRT, Nashville's commuter rail and Austin's commuter rail projects.  Most likely, we'll need to follow a similar path towards approval and implementation.

Looking at Sunrail, here is an article from 2010 that might apply to this discussion:

On track for hiring: 2 rail projects to bring jobs later this year



Jobs. Thousands of them. That's one of the main ways supporters pitched the two trains heading for Orlando.

"A lot of people have inquired," said state Department of Transportation spokesman Steve Olson. "That's what it's about, jobs. They want this thing to happen right now."

So when will the hiring begin?

Looks like it could be a while yet. The best guess is contractors will begin adding to the payroll late summer or early fall, with the rate of employment increasing into 2011 and beyond.

"We're moving as fast as we can. It hasn't been for lack of trying," said Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, whose city is one of the sponsors of the SunRail commuter train.

The key is just how quickly the $4.4 billion that been promised to build SunRail and high-speed rail ends up in Tallahassee, the headquarters of the state DOT, which is overseeing both projects.

Millions of dollars â€" $44 million to be exact â€" already has been spent on SunRail, the first phase of which would connect DeBary in Volusia County with downtown Orlando and Sand Lake Road in south Orange County. Most of the jobs â€" spread over 60 contracts â€" were filled by consultants drawing up plans and completing studies.

Much of the preliminary legwork for the high speed train, which would link Orlando International Airport with Lakeland and downtown Tampa, has been handled mostly by state officials. They relied in part on work done previously at the behest of the now disbanded High Speed Rail Authority.

Right now, SunRail is ahead of high speed when it comes to hiring because two major construction contractors have been selected to build the 61.5-mile corridor: Archer Western of Chicago and RailWorks, a national firm with an office in Jacksonville. High speed does not have any contractors.

But SunRail will not start hiring until it gets a document from the federal government that essentially says all the necessary paperwork has been filled out correctly and approved. State and city officials speculate that won't happen until late this summer.

Once the so-called full funding agreement is recorded, the state can expect close to $130 million to be released to it in stages from the federal government. That would be added to the $44 million already sent from Washington, D.C., bringing the total to around $174 million, or more than half of the $300 million total expected.

Once the federal money is released, another $300 million from the state and Orlando, Orange, Seminole, Volusia and Osceola counties will be freed up for construction. The state also is paying $432 million to CSX for the tracks upon which SunRail will run for other improvements to the railroad system. An additional $200 million will be spent by the state upgrading five road-rail interchanges.

High-speed rail, conversely, is waiting for $1.25 billion from the federal government, which is about half of the $2.6 billion the state requested to build the project. No one is quite sure when that money will be turned loose, though design and construction is expected to start next year.

Once the money is flowing, SunRail proponents maintain that 6,700 construction jobs could be created by the train. High-speed rail, meanwhile, envisions about 23,000 construction-related jobs. Both maintain thousands more jobs will be spun on for development spurred the trains.

Among the jobs that would be posted and filled during the process would be: Asphalt contractors and workers to construct station parking lots; building trades workers and managers to build the stations; computer technicians for control center and other locations; control center workers (dispatch area) and managers; custodial staff; design engineers; technicians to install fire sprinklers at the stations; geotechnical staff/engineers; heavy equipment/construction equipment operators; locomotive engineers and workers on board the trains; and maintenance staff for the track and signals.

The train systems also will need mechanics to maintain the locomotives and passenger cars; plumbers to install water lines at the stations; public involvement workers to educate constituents about safety; safety personnel-including corridor safety and station security; signal workers to install and maintain the signals along the corridor; surveyors; workers to install track, ballast (rocks) ties, and other assignments along the corridor; and drivers to bring product to the construction sites.

Since Florida is a right-to-work state, jobs could be filled by union workers or those unaffiliated with collective bargaining agents. The decision to hire union workers, at least with SunRail, would be up to the contractors actually doing the work. Most of the high-speed jobs are expected to go union because of federal regulations.

Union wages generally are higher than those paid to non-union employees, leading one area construction worker to worry about the future pay scale for the trains, particularly SunRail.

A 31-year veteran of Central Florida's construction industry, the worker â€" who asked that his name not be used for fear of offending potential employers â€" said he worries that wages will be kept artificially low to win bids or to increase the profits of the contractor.

Non-union wages, he said, typically range from $12 to $18 in the area, depending on the job and experience. That's not enough, he said, for a worker to spend on extras likely to stimulate the economy.

"You've got to go to work every day," the carpenter and masonry expert said. "You can never get ahead. We don't have the extra money."

Rich Templin, a spokesman for the AFL-CIO in Tallahassee, said the unions are "working on trying to figure out" how the hiring will be done and the wage scales.

"From floor to ceiling," Templin said, "we expect to have people participating in the process."

SunRail is supposed to begin operations in late 2014, with the second phase, including stops in Poinciana in Osceola and DeLand in Volusia, ready a year later. The high-speed train is set to start in late 2014 or early 2015.

Dan Tracy can be reached at dtracy@orlandosentinel.com or 407-420-5444.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/os-cfb-cover-jobs-sunrail-high-speed-20100221,0,5123330.story



More SunRail jobs up for grabs

More jobs are available as construction begins Jan. 27 on the first 31-mile phase of the $1.3 billion Central Florida commuter rail SunRail.

The state Department of Transportation is again seeking bids for signal maintenance right of way services, which involve day-to-day maintenance of the signal systems, including coordination with the transportation department, Federal Road Administration, CSX Transportation, Federal Transit Administration, and the design and construction teams. Coordination would include scheduling signal maintenance, track outages, curfews and other maintenance requirements so as not to impede the construction and other non-signal maintenance activities, the bid document showed.
To access details on the contract, see the “procurement document” box on SunRail’s jobs Web page http://www.sunrail.com/jobsschedule.asp.

Proposals on the contract, first advertised last November, are due March 5 and the bid is expected to be awarded on March 26.

Meanwhile, SunRail’s design/build contractor Archer Western Contractors Ltd. advertised positions for a mechanic and a critical path method scheduler.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2012/01/27/more-sunrail-jobs-up-for-grabs.html


Btw, don't assume that Jacksonville-based companies need to be convinced they can make money off constructing rail to get a rail project approved here.  We're a rail and logistics hub.  Many of the companies with a presence here already bid and work on rail related projects in and outside Duval County. 

Also, going back to the giving of local contracts to help win "local" approval, what happens if you have multiple companies doing the same line of work?  Why "give" a contract to a particular company over another?  Do something like that, instead of properly bidding out work and you'll end up with the entire project tied up in court.

[cityimrov]

Once the money is flowing, SunRail proponents maintain that 6,700 construction jobs could be created by the train. High-speed rail, meanwhile, envisions about 23,000 construction-related jobs. Both maintain thousands more jobs will be spun on for development spurred the trains.

Among the jobs that would be posted and filled during the process would be: Asphalt contractors and workers to construct station parking lots; building trades workers and managers to build the stations; computer technicians for control center and other locations; control center workers (dispatch area) and managers; custodial staff; design engineers; technicians to install fire sprinklers at the stations; geotechnical staff/engineers; heavy equipment/construction equipment operators; locomotive engineers and workers on board the trains; and maintenance staff for the track and signals.

The train systems also will need mechanics to maintain the locomotives and passenger cars; plumbers to install water lines at the stations; public involvement workers to educate constituents about safety; safety personnel-including corridor safety and station security; signal workers to install and maintain the signals along the corridor; surveyors; workers to install track, ballast (rocks) ties, and other assignments along the corridor; and drivers to bring product to the construction sites.

I'm going to take a small detour here.  Has JTA ever worked on a project of this magnitude before?  Do they know how to handle all the pieces to make this happen?  What is their track record of big projects that have continual maintenance requirements? 

If I was someone who goes to work at 9 and clock out at 5 while trying to do the least amount amount of work in while there,  why would I do all this work when building roads is so much easier.   I just have one contract in the beginning to keep watch of.  I don't need to take care of stations and stops since private parking lots takes cares of that.  I don't have to worry about safety education since that's a state and federal problem.  Computer technicians, why would roads need that?   

What incentive is there for JTA to do all this hard work? 

[thelakelander]

Which particular project?  BRT, streetcar, commuter rail?  In Orlando's case, Sunrail isn't being operated by Lynx. I'm not even sure JTA would be totally responsible for every mode but large projects they've worked on in the past include the Skyway and Dames Point Bridge.  Also, their new director has worked on or been a part of several projects in San Francisco, NYC, and Atlanta that were larger and much more complex than anything that we're talking about locally.

[cityimrov]

Which particular project?  BRT, streetcar, commuter rail?  In Orlando's case, Sunrail isn't being operated by Lynx. I'm not even sure JTA would be totally responsible for every mode but large projects they've worked on in the past include the Skyway and Dames Point Bridge.  Also, their new director has worked on or been a part of several projects in San Francisco, NYC, and Atlanta that were larger and much more complex than anything that we're talking about locally.

All of them.  But for sanity, streetcars. 

The new director seems promising but how about the old directors and the previous staff.  How was their performance?  Does the leftover staff seem ready to take on this project? 

[thelakelander]

What JTA's old directors did or didn't do shouldn't really matter now. Also, the streetcar doesn't necessarily have to be run by JTA.  There are several different ways to manage and operate these types of transit lines across the country.  Whenever we decide to move forward, we'll have to select a path of operation that best aligns with the specific style of streetcar service we desire. 

With that said, JTA's new CEO Nathaniel Ford, was over Muni and their F Market & Wharves historic streetcar line. To a degree, it will be up him to direct his staff on planning and implementation of whatever vision he brings to the table.

With a little creativity, San Francisco's F Market & Wharves historic streetcar line is the most successful vintage rail line ever opened, attracting over 20,000 riders a day. The restoration of the F-Line led to a billion dollars of redevelopment along the wharves and waterfront and has been so successful in re-energizing the economy that the city is reviewing plans to double the length of the route in order to fully redevelop the historically commercial waterfront. With developments like the Cannery and Ghirardelli square credited to historic transit lines, no one was prepared for the explosion of business and revenue that resulted from adding the vintage and often whimsical F-Line. In its wake however, the value of historic streetcars is finally beginning to be realized by planners across the planet. Can Jacksonville learn from San Francisco's experience?

full article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-streetcars-waterfronts-the-f-market-wharves-line

[cityimrov]

What JTA's old directors did or didn't do shouldn't really matter now.

It really shouldn't but it often does.  Usually some of the old stuff spills over to the new ones with the old ones making odd simple requests (see Mellow Mushroom Avondale) that eventually compounds over to ruin a good plan.   

With that being said, I hope the new director can see through that and do what he can to make this a reality.  Going back to the original topic, who built the F Line?  Where did they learn to operate it? 

[thelakelander]

You want to know what private sector company won Muni's bid to oversee the F-Line's construction? Also, are you asking how did their streetcar operators learn to operate streetcars?  Without spending a little time researching that particular system or asking Nat Ford, I couldn't tell you. 

If it helps answer how an agency can run something they haven't done before, Austin is a good example.  They hired Veolia Transportation to operate their new Capital MetroRail commuter rail line. Veolia also operates  MBTA's (Boston) and Tri-Rail's (Miami) commuter rail lines.  I suspect if JTA built a rail line, they'd probably contract with a company that has experience running those types of operations.