CHANGING DOWNTOWN TO UPTOWN

[Ocklawaha]

JTA? Don't forget, I have the funding concepts in my pocket... Streetcars? Pick up the phone, we need to talk business. No one has ever tried this method, but I have checked every angle, we would be a world trend setter and leader. Imagine a concept so novel that the streetcar line or company is making big dollars before the first car runs down the line? Crazy? Federal input? ZERO! Do it ourselves and do it now...We better talk.

Ocklawaha

[alta]

I don't know if you remember me from the Kent Campus BRT meeting.   brought up the Austin lr system

[thelakelander]

Thanks and welcome aboard alta. Funny thing is after meeting with Lakelander and the MJ boys all had the same feelings on the figure 8... WHY? Why not just strike out for the burbs... Then I went home to do some more soul searching and checked out the plan for the new CINCINNATI STREETCAR PROJECT. Well as you can see from the image, I about fell out of my chair laughing...I mean? How weird is this?

See y'all, I'm not nearly as crazy as you thought I was, hell it's worse then that! It's all of us streetcar types!



OCKLAWAHA

Example of neighborhood density immediately adjacent to Downtown Cincinnati (literally across the street).

The major difference is Cincinnati is dense.  Neighborhoods like Over-The-Rhine are directly adjacent to downtown.  LaVilla is dead man's zone with no real possibility of massive urban redevelopment unless half the recent suburban office development is torn down....which won't be happening anytime soon.  So with us, the figure 8 wasn't the issue, the burned out landscape was.  So if the LaVilla line of the eight became a second phase, that would allow the "starter" to be extended to Five Points (a place where people want to go) and immediately encourage redevelopment in Brooklyn, thus merging the two (Five Points/Riverside & Downtown) together.  Then as rail based development catches on, a line into LaVilla (hopefully by this time the city has its act together) can be added, completing that figure 8.

[tufsu1]

JTA? Don't forget, I have the funding concepts in my pocket... Streetcars? Pick up the phone, we need to talk business. No one has ever tried this method, but I have checked every angle, we would be a world trend setter and leader. Imagine a concept so novel that the streetcar line or company is making big dollars before the first car runs down the line? Crazy? Federal input? ZERO! Do it ourselves and do it now...We better talk.

Ocklawaha

I suppose you could always call them...communication works both ways!

[Ocklawaha]

Been there done that.... Balls in JTA's court.

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

When I drive in LaVilla I still see acres of empty space, and the potential of a few abandoned buildings and the rare historical building. That could only equal one thing with streetcar, the chance to prove the technology by fostering Bay Street Station - like development throughout the district. In effect turning all of LaVilla into one giant construction zone considering the streetcar and Courthouse could be going in at roughly the same times.

Streetcars are the economic development engine of cities of the future â€" Higher property values, the number of building permits issued near streetcar routes and related job creation are measures of economic development. The first leg of the Tampa streetcar system cost $56 million. However, Tampa reported $1 billion of economic development attributable to the streetcar â€" a 1,000 percent return on this project’s investment of $56 million. Little Rock 920% and Portland is now at $3 Billion.

Other measures â€" Other less tangible indicators of success for a streetcar system will include the increased vibrancy of the LaVilla-Downtown-Randolph areas â€" for example, if it attracts more employees and residents or sports fans or results in economic advantages over surrounding urban areas. Some of these factors can be measured by population or sales tax revenue growth, but are not as easily directly attributed solely to the streetcar. While the Court is still in session on this plan, I certainly do support the extensions South and North.

Ocklawaha

[civil42806]

I don't care how many street cars and trolleys you build, no one wants to live in the lavilla desert.  Its unfortunate that all the housing was torn down, but its gone.  Your much better off trying to go south across the river to brooklyn and riverside and north along main.  The city screwed up lavilla and basically killed it for the next generation or two

[thelakelander]

When I drive in LaVilla I still see acres of empty space, and the potential of a few abandoned buildings and the rare historical building. That could only equal one thing with streetcar, the chance to prove the technology by fostering Bay Street Station - like development throughout the district. In effect turning all of LaVilla into one giant construction zone considering the streetcar and Courthouse could be going in at roughly the same times.

Looks can be deceiving, which is why its always good to take a look at the property appraiser's site, as well.  Unfortunately, Most of LaVilla is all peice mealed with additional parcels already called for, for more suburban type development (for example, Pappas has another block intended for a third office building of his, with surface parking).   Without a complete makerover, a streetcar will have less effect there than it would in Brooklyn, where there are already significant developments planned and bunch of major corporate office buildings a three block walk away from Park Street.  Then on top of that, you still have Five Points as a major anchor to the South.  Ridership and development potential will certainly be higher.  When I get back to town, lets take a Saturday and tour both to compare notes.

Streetcars are the economic development engine of cities of the future â€" Higher property values, the number of building permits issued near streetcar routes and related job creation are measures of economic development. The first leg of the Tampa streetcar system cost $56 million. However, Tampa reported $1 billion of economic development attributable to the streetcar â€" a 1,000 percent return on this project’s investment of $56 million. Little Rock 920% and Portland is now at $3 Billion.

No disagreement here.  However, you can't spur growth if the guys in those suburban office park buildings with blocks of surface parking won't give their lots up.  Long term, the area has potential, but the neighborhood south of McCoys Creek has more short term potential, plus it allows residents in an area outside of downtown to use the initial phase for commuting purposes as well.  So a "starter" could tap in to an exisiting urban residential population, immediately connect downtown workers, visitors and conventioneers to Jacksonville's most popular urban nightlife and dining spot, plus spur redevelopment in Brooklyn.  You simply can't get all those things immediately with an initial line running only in downtown (especially LaVilla).

Other measures â€" Other less tangible indicators of success for a streetcar system will include the increased vibrancy of the LaVilla-Downtown-Randolph areas â€" for example, if it attracts more employees and residents or sports fans or results in economic advantages over surrounding urban areas.

The same can be said for Brooklyn, except its not an IF.  It already has residents, a popular urban district and a couple of major companies with thousands of employees within walking distance of the line.  Plus, the FDOT is currently setting up Forest Street to be the new gateway into the Downtown core.  It would be a pretty powerful image to see rail transit spurring development around the first stoplight one reaches after exiting I-10 and I-95.

Some of these factors can be measured by population or sales tax revenue growth, but are not as easily directly attributed solely to the streetcar. While the Court is still in session on this plan, I certainly do support the extensions South and North.

Support the Figure 8 becoming a "T" with an "L" stretching from Newnan to Five Points.  Giving the city's set up, it will be much more popular initially.  Then in the future, you can complete the figure 8 through LaVilla as an extension to spur development in no man's land.

[Ocklawaha]

Civil, thanks for the input and a belated welcome aboard to you. I agree that the City did a horrible thing in LaVilla. I don't know who pushed tearing down things like the old freight station or the bordello district but there should be a special heated corner of hell waiting for them.

If we go ahead and dump the one-way grid, then the North line becomes less urgent, but as-is, there has to be a return route from the Stadium all the way to Lee, in order to turn South into Riverside. It MUST pass the Union Station, it MUST have access to both Randolph and Springfield. The only street that qualifys is Duval. If the carline is Bi-directional then the upper line might wait to close the loop until the others are up and runni, ng.

It won't be the same Jacksonville with streetcar in downtown, we will be the development grounds of Florida.
La Villa and all the other locales will change veryquickly. A couple of nice condo projects and Bay Street Station and heck, I'd move there tomorrow.

One last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

If we go ahead and dump the one-way grid, then the North line becomes less urgent, but as-is, there has to be a return route from the Stadium all the way to Lee, in order to turn South into Riverside. It MUST pass the Union Station, it MUST have access to both Randolph and Springfield. The only street that qualifys is Duval. If the carline is Bi-directional then the upper line might wait to close the loop until the others are up and runni, ng.[/quote]

How about a single line with passing sidings, as opposed to a one way loop?  Wouldn't a one-way loop be similar to Detroit's peoplemover?  What happens if I want to hop on the streetcar to go in the other direction four blocks? 

One last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Btw, they were talking about us on 1460am this morning.  Radiotalkshowhost had Bob Harms on today.  He spent about 15 minutes or so talking about streetcars, commuter rail and the S-Line and how it would be a priority for him to see those things done, if he got elected.

[Ocklawaha]

Wouldn't LaVilla be an area that would have the most potential for private growth?  I like your point about extending to 5 points right away because so many people live there and it is a destination area, but I wouldn't cut LaVilla out completely.  All of those overgrown lots are just waiting for a reason to be developed...or at least I hope they are.

I wouldn't cut LaVilla out, but if I had lets say... $30 million to invest in a "starter" line, I'd favor it going to Five Points over LaVilla.  Whatever, private growth you would get out of LaVilla could be doubled in Brooklyn between the Jax terminal/downtown and Five Points because it covers more land and the available land isn't already spoken for (try buying land in LaVilla...most of it isn't for sell).

I think we're all in agreement, the LaVilla question could be settled by the time this moves foward, start the Courthouse and Bay Street Station and the $$$$ signs will change the entire development picture of the downtown core, 5-Points, Randolph etc...

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

How about a single line with passing sidings, as opposed to a one way loop?  Wouldn't a one-way loop be similar to Detroit's peoplemover?  What happens if I want to hop on the streetcar to go in the other direction four blocks? 

Quote
One last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Btw, they were talking about us on 1460am this morning.  Radiotalkshowhost had Bob Harms on today.  He spent about 15 minutes or so talking about streetcars, commuter rail and the S-Line and how it would be a priority for him to see those things done, if he got elected.

The one-way grid would be great for operations, but sucks for marketing types. Your right of course that a line with passing sidings or some double track (Water St.?) would make a huge difference. Any chance that HARMS will get in? Odds anyone? Perhaps we should give him a call...or invite.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Been there done that.... Balls in JTA's court.

Ocklawaha

well then, they must not be interested in your proposal...stop asking them to call...and just move on with it yourself!

[Ocklawaha]

My, my, did someone miss his fruitloops this morning? Consider who we are dealing with here, sometimes things have to be...

how to say this...

"Explain it as you would to a child..."

OCKLAWAHA

[brainstormer]

I'm glad you are sticking with your figure 8 OCKLAWAHA.  When it comes to development in LaVilla, isn't there a planning and development committee that approves all projects before they are built?  How about a vision for the area that is more creative and dense than the one story buildings with huge parking lots.  I know it is a lot to ask of our city leaders but perhaps we can set stricter guidelines for development in the area.  Set the bar a little higher and say no to projects that don't meet qualifications of the vision.  If we get the Bay Street Station up and running there will be competition for housing developments in and around LaVilla.  It will be worthwhile to go vertical and not horizontal.