Is Jacksonville's Urban Sprawl Unique?

[Metro Jacksonville]

Is Jacksonville's Urban Sprawl Unique?



Have you heard that Jacksonville is too spread out for things like reliable mass transit to work? Wonder how Jacksonville's urban area really stacks up with other American communities in terms of population, land area, and density?  Here is a chart that will answer that question.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-dec-is-jacksonvilles-urban-sprawl-unique-

[Captain Zissou]

We can easily support a streetcar in the urban core neighborhoods.  Most of the development around Tampa's streetcar looked like new construction that was built as a result of the streetcar.  We already have high density areas between Riverside and Downtown, with the potential for much higher density in the Brooklyn and La Villa neighborhoods.  To me, it seems like a no-brainer.

[jcjohnpaint]

I'm going to say yeah a no brainer, but I was thinking lately about a conversation between Simms and Lakelander.  What defines what is suburban and what defines what is urban?  I have been in a lot of really dense areas that felt so suburban that I think the definition of the term need to be clarified a bit.  I think urban has more to do with 'people' and the ability of people to move around without cars.  Suburban, no matter how dense, is built around the car (Buckhead in Atlanta).  I feel that neighborhoods could be built very dense and not be built to support mass transit.  The idea of people being able to walk or bike to a station has to be part of the equation (NY as an example).  I don't need a car to exist  in NY (because it was built that way).  LA on the other hand is built in a very different way.  According to the list/ overall LA is more dense than NY, but feels suburban and makes it hard to get transit off the ground.  So, this gets back to us:  Is mass transit easier in some kinds of neighborhoods, but not others due more to walkability than density?  Most of the neighborhoods built after transit lines are put in are built to feed these lines in a pedestrian centric way (they are urban and typically more block and walking format).  One of the interesting things about Jacksonville is most of the core was built in an urban walkable way, but was later razed.  I think that the adaptation of mass transit (if done right) could dictate how the future Jacksonville is built. 

[thelakelander]

I got around pretty easy using mass transit in LA last year.  I flew into LAX and used a mix of buses and trains to get around LA and San Diego. Since then, they've opened another LRT line that serves USC and eventually Santa Monica. Considering what they've implemented since the 1990s, I think LA is underrated and gets a bad rap nationally when discussing mass transit.  As for Jax, most the core wasn't razed.  Outside of the downtown area, its simply been either abandoned or negatively impacted by expressway construction and new autocentric development.  I believe the key to growing a successful system here is starting small by providing better service in areas that can support the investment, changing land use policy, and incrementally expanding.  Also, by starting small, initial improvements still have to be significant enough to effectively tie in downtown with surrounding urban core neighborhoods.

[Captain Zissou]

When I was in Atlanta I think Buckhead had a very Southbank feel to it.  The Southbank may now be home to almost as many residents as the Northbank, but you wouldn't know it by walking around the street.  I agree that walkability is as much of a factor as density.

[thelakelander]

^Miami is a great example of a place with high density but pedestrian hostile due to roadway design and land use planning.


Miami's Brickell Financial District

[dougsandiego]

I am looking at the photograph of Jacksonville (?) that heads this article and I notice there are no sidewalks along that roadway. That would be most unusual in San Diego, even along the many non-pedestrian friendly corridors that exist here. If that is a common condition, I think that it will be important to add infrastructure like sidewalks so people can first reach buses and trolleys. I must report that we are in the midst of a major battle in which several local groups, joined by the State Attorney General and the Sierra Club, have sued and won a case against the San Diego Association of Governments regarding the implementation of a 40-year, 200 billion dollar program of transport improvements which envisioned more roadway expansions early and transport improvements later. The plaintiffs wish to reverse the process so that the so-called urban core, transit first plan is implemented in the early stages. Sandag has agreed to negotiate, but I see more litigation. The City is implementing a bike share program next year to deal with the problem of the "last mile". That is something Jacksonville should do given its flat topography. Perhaps, you could try it at the major bus stops, the Skyway, and the future Florida railway station? Somehow, San Diego is implementing the bike share at no cost to the City. I am not sure how they are achieving this, but maybe you should check into it. A key player here is Councilman Todd Gloria (toddgloria@sandiego.gov). His office may be able to provide you with some information.Keep at it. We are all fighting the good fight.

[vicupstate]

I am looking at the photograph of Jacksonville (?) that heads this article and I notice there are no sidewalks along that roadway. That would be most unusual in San Diego, even along the many non-pedestrian friendly corridors that exist here. If that is a common condition, I think that it will be important to add infrastructure like sidewalks so people can first reach buses and trolleys. I must report that we are in the midst of a major battle in which several local groups, joined by the State Attorney General and the Sierra Club, have sued and won a case against the San Diego Association of Governments regarding the implementation of a 40-year, 200 billion dollar program of transport improvements which envisioned more roadway expansions early and transport improvements later. The plaintiffs wish to reverse the process so that the so-called urban core, transit first plan is implemented in the early stages. Sandag has agreed to negotiate, but I see more litigation. The City is implementing a bike share program next year to deal with the problem of the "last mile". That is something Jacksonville should do given its flat topography. Perhaps, you could try it at the major bus stops, the Skyway, and the future Florida railway station? Somehow, San Diego is implementing the bike share at no cost to the City. I am not sure how they are achieving this, but maybe you should check into it. A key player here is Councilman Todd Gloria (toddgloria@sandiego.gov). His office may be able to provide you with some information.Keep at it. We are all fighting the good fight.

Greenville just announced that the B-Cycle program will open there in the Spring. 

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2012312050029

http://www.bcycle.com/

San Diego isn't listed in the B-cycle website, but maybe a similar organization is doing it there.

[thelakelander]

I am looking at the photograph of Jacksonville (?) that heads this article and I notice there are no sidewalks along that roadway. That would be most unusual in San Diego, even along the many non-pedestrian friendly corridors that exist here. If that is a common condition, I think that it will be important to add infrastructure like sidewalks so people can first reach buses and trolleys. I must report that we are in the midst of a major battle in which several local groups, joined by the State Attorney General and the Sierra Club, have sued and won a case against the San Diego Association of Governments regarding the implementation of a 40-year, 200 billion dollar program of transport improvements which envisioned more roadway expansions early and transport improvements later. The plaintiffs wish to reverse the process so that the so-called urban core, transit first plan is implemented in the early stages. Sandag has agreed to negotiate, but I see more litigation. The City is implementing a bike share program next year to deal with the problem of the "last mile". That is something Jacksonville should do given its flat topography. Perhaps, you could try it at the major bus stops, the Skyway, and the future Florida railway station? Somehow, San Diego is implementing the bike share at no cost to the City. I am not sure how they are achieving this, but maybe you should check into it. A key player here is Councilman Todd Gloria (toddgloria@sandiego.gov). His office may be able to provide you with some information.Keep at it. We are all fighting the good fight.

That's San Jose Boulevard in a suburban area of Jacksonville.  We have several arterial highways like this that lack amenities or thought for pedestrians, cyclist, and mass transit users.  It's probably one of the major reasons that we have one of the highest fatality rates for pedestrians and cyclist in the country.  Luckily, in this case, this stretch of San Jose is in the process of having sidewalks added.

[jcjohnpaint]

You know a trip to Miami this weekend got me thinking about how all the small communities in and around the city are gated.  Each block has walls against the sidewalk.  Basically you walk from block to block without ever seeing the front of a house or a porch.  Psychologically, this creates many dead zones from one block to another and gives the area a suburban feeling, although extremely dense.  You can walk a bit and not see too many people on the streets.  I do go to LA a bit and I feel the same way.  For mass transit to be beneficial it has to have high ridership.  I am just asking if the way a neighborhood is built (urban or suburban) persuade or dissuade ridership and support of mass transit? 

[thelakelander]

^Yes.  The way a neighborhood is constructed (land use policy) can have a dramatic negative impact on mass transit and walkability.

[Captain Zissou]

Last time I was in the Palm Beach area I saw a ton of this.  One road split two communities and there was nothing but stucco walls for over a mile and a half.  The two communities maintained the ROW, so it was pleasant, but it was by no means vibrant.

[lewyn]

First of all, LA is NOT denser than NY in any meaningful way.  LA has suburbs that are denser than NY, but what makes NY a transit city is the dense core.  So to compare these cities, you really should be comparing density in the central core.  Is Jacksonville's core (San Marco, Avondale etc) as dense as those of other cities listed above?

Answer: No.  According to city-data.com, San Marco has only 2290 people per square mile. Riverside has 3505 people per square mile.

By contrast, Atlanta's Midtown neighborhood (the first neighborhood north of downtown) has 6385 people per square mile.  Miami's Brickell has over 10,000 people per square mile.

[Ocklawaha]

LA on the other hand is built in a very different way.  According to the list/ overall LA is more dense than NY, but feels suburban and makes it hard to get transit off the ground.   

Actually there is a flaw in your history. Los Angeles was one of the most transit friendly cities in the world until 1963. The interurban Los Angeles to Long Beach passenger rail line served the longest â€" from July 4, 1903 until April 9, 1961. It was the both the first and last interurban passenger line of the former Pacific Electric. It still had long stretches of open country running on private right-of-way. With the closure of the Long Beach line the final rail link in the system was eliminated â€" replaced by the interurban Motor Coach 36f ("F" representing Freeway Flyer) route. This former PE route was the first of the new MTA light rail lines â€" rebuilt as the dual track Metro Blue Line.

The few remaining trolley-coach routes and narrow-gauge streetcar routes of the former Los Angeles Railway "Yellow Cars" were removed in early 1963. The public transportation system continued to operate under the name MTA until the agency was reorganized and relaunched as the Southern California Rapid Transit District in September 1964.

That Los Angeles somehow grew up with freeways is a myth, in fact most of the freeways such as the original FREEWAY 7 - LONG BEACH FREEWAY, simply paralleled interurban routes which had been well established by 1910. Closer to the core there was a dense network of streetcars (narrow gauge no less) which covered just about every avenue in the city. Where the Yellow Cars didn't go, the electric trolley buses did. It all came to a sad end which began a ill advised 29 year experiment that would have made Randal O'Toole and Wendell Cox burst with pride, but to the average Angeleno is was a disaster.

Whenever I traveled around the 'LA Southland' (1960's-70's) people would introduce me as a railroad guy, I quickly discovered that almost without fail the subject would come up, "What a crime that they took away our electric cars." This thought was never very far from the heart's and minds of the citizenry.

1,150 miles of "Pacific Electric Railway."

Pacific Electric "Blue Line" then...

"Blue Line - Light Rail" today...




642 miles of Los Angeles Railway


Los Angles Railway "Yellow Car" on Crenshaw Blvd.

RETURN OF THE YELLOW CARS!

WE GOT STREETCAR!
December 10, 2012
THANK YOU DOWNTOWN!After several years of working with Downtown property owners, residents, and other stakeholders, the Streetcar project cleared a huge hurdle…more
Click here for more information. http://www.streetcar.la

[simms3]

First of all, LA is NOT denser than NY in any meaningful way.  LA has suburbs that are denser than NY, but what makes NY a transit city is the dense core.  So to compare these cities, you really should be comparing density in the central core.  Is Jacksonville's core (San Marco, Avondale etc) as dense as those of other cities listed above?

Answer: No.  According to city-data.com, San Marco has only 2290 people per square mile. Riverside has 3505 people per square mile.

By contrast, Atlanta's Midtown neighborhood (the first neighborhood north of downtown) has 6385 people per square mile.  Miami's Brickell has over 10,000 people per square mile.

This is a very good point.  I'd really like to add to it.  Miami's Brickell neighborhood and Atlanta's Midtown are both exaggerated in terms of land area to the point of including several neighborhoods in Census tracts and overall "speak".  Miami's Brickell neighborhood probably pushes 20,000 ppsm as we know it and all of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown are in the 10,000 ppsm range, which is about as dense as it gets in the south.  Atlanta's Midtown neighborhood as should be considered is in the 10,000 ppsm range and all of the areas surrounding downtown are in the 6,000 ppsm range.

This is to me what makes cities such as Nashville much larger than Jacksonville.  Nashville's metro as discussed on MetroJax is very "not dense", bla bla bla, but Nashville's downtown and inner core are exponentially more built out and more dense than Jacksonville's urban core (maybe not on paper when you factor in the areas that are literally not built on, but like most piedmont area cities where there are buildings, there are buildings and people!).

I'd say south FL sprawl is pretty unique in the south, very dense...similar to CA sprawl, but more organized (no hills/mountains to contend with).  Jacksonville sprawl is a mix of denser south FL sprawl and very loosely organized and not dense Piedmont region sprawl.  Atlanta's suburban sprawl is a very very sad tale, but the urban sprawl within the perimeter (I285) is only ~3-4,000 ppsm on average because of the way the city is built out.  You have a lot of pockets of relative density built around ravines, railroad tracks, hills, and the like (very Appalachia like Pittsburgh in this regard), and then the business districts and megamansions of Buckhead take up a lot of space, as well.

I think Jax overall has relatively dense sprawl for southeastern cities to the point where the entire city from Riverside to the southside is built up around 3,000+ ppsm (Dallas and Houston are very much this way, too), but that doesn't mean much for transit or walkability on the surface (Houston to me seems like one of the most unwalkable cities in the world, yet has a very heavily ridden LRT line on one of the only walkable corridors in the metro, the rest of the metro being about the same density as the transit friendly corridor).

I think it will be difficult to make transit work on much of the SS.  How would a place like Southpoint even be served or connected?  Everything is too isolated and spread out.  I do think Riverside/Avondale/Springfield and San Marco set up very very nicely for LRT or streetcars so long as the historic preservation nazis are taken with a grain of salt and new infill is allowed to be constructed (not just "faux-old" houses, but real infill).