DIA Chairman Donald Harris: Extend Skyway to Everbank Field?

[tufsu1]

Not sure if this is off topic but, when does the new JTA Director begin working?

I believe he's already here

[comncense]

Not sure if this is off topic but, when does the new JTA Director begin working?

I believe he's already here

I'd be interested in hearing what his take is on Skyway expansion.

[simms3]

I don't think the Skyway is a system worth expanding until other better alternative modes of transportation are added or expanded.  A well-planned and implemented streetcar line would be a much better economic development tool than an expensive Skyway spur to the stadium district...Big time development is certainly not going to replace the parking lots around the stadiums and there are very few developable sites in that area (let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

General commuting to and from the Stadium district is out of the question and the only use will be for game days (and I don't believe for a second that our monorail, streetcars, or even LRT has the capacity to handle the spikes in demand that game day traffic could facilitate).  Really for transit only heavy rail has the capacity to transport tens of thousands of fans to stadiums at any given time...

Bottom line, a Skyway spur to the stadiums is a complete waste and will be shown as a waste (another notch in people's minds proving how spending on public transit is wasteful).  The high cost of the construction and operation, the inefficiencies of the layout as it stands now and with this additional spur, the small capacity of the system and the trains, and the area served itself (stadium district) is enough to logically say "No" to this.

[Scott A Wilson]

Is it possible to extend it at ground level?

[thelakelander]

Not without making it impossible to cross by foot, car, or bike.

[Spence]

brain share, simms3?

Let the skyway DO its job, and connect to it with streetcar lines.

Obvious transfer connections would happen in:
Brooklyn,
the Kings Avenue parking facility,
Pearl/1st/Laura/Boulevard, Springfield Park "disc golf" vicinity,

and the bumfuzzled Parador parking structure planned for Hogan and Bay -
thusly east to and from the Stadium district, Florida Ave, Historic Albert Kahn/Ford building.

BUT

Would a pair of streetcar lines bolted, riveted, brazed and welded onto both sides of the Mathews bridge fall into the river and become our next artificial reefs?

The skyway is fine and does a decent job if left as is and tied seamlessly into a well executed at-grade fixed transit system.

Mass transit has never truly "paid for itself", nor was it meant to do so, and nor do our toxic sand and oil (a/k/a/asphalt) highways and bypasses.

Rubber-tired busses cannot ever do the job of a heritage line of (even open air) streetcars.
There exists a definite attraction to the perceived glamour of clean, quiet, nifty rail traveling streetcars.

We must embrace this passenger rail ideal and use it when it arrives, and for this to happen, such must be well executed and carefully planned.
The stringent, transparent vetting of said planning must take the necessary time needed in order to cover the correct ground and connect the failing destinations and fledgling masses.

The Jacksonville Historical Society did not uselessly publish a list of endangered places.

Annie Lytle, the Kahn building, the Springflield warehouses and Gateway, are the SAINT JOHNS TOWN CENTER.

[vicupstate]

I don't think the Skyway is a system worth expanding until other better alternative modes of transportation are added or expanded.  A well-planned and implemented streetcar line would be a much better economic development tool than an expensive Skyway spur to the stadium district...Big time development is certainly not going to replace the parking lots around the stadiums and there are very few developable sites in that area (let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

General commuting to and from the Stadium district is out of the question and the only use will be for game days (and I don't believe for a second that our monorail, streetcars, or even LRT has the capacity to handle the spikes in demand that game day traffic could facilitate).  Really for transit only heavy rail has the capacity to transport tens of thousands of fans to stadiums at any given time...

Bottom line, a Skyway spur to the stadiums is a complete waste and will be shown as a waste (another notch in people's minds proving how spending on public transit is wasteful).  The high cost of the construction and operation, the inefficiencies of the layout as it stands now and with this additional spur, the small capacity of the system and the trains, and the area served itself (stadium district) is enough to logically say "No" to this.

I agree.  I wish the skyway had never been built.  It ruined the image of public mass transit like nothing else in Jacksonville. It is toxic as a political issue and is yet another  'silver bullet' for DT revivial.

Streetcar is the way to go, and in the mean time get the Laura Trio/Barnett buildings filled in some capacity.   

[jcjohnpaint]

What is wrong with the skyway?  It has fixed stations and stops are predictable.  What would be the difference.  A street car would not be much different although on the street. 

[vicupstate]

What is wrong with the skyway?  It has fixed stations and stops are predictable.  What would be the difference.  A street car would not be much different although on the street. 

I think simms3 makes the case pretty well.  An extention to the stadium would mostly  used only on game/event days, would ruin the appearance of the Bay Street Entertainment district, and isn't economical and would not have the capacity of a streetcar line.   

[simms3]

Systems tied seamlessly together are useful - to a point (and I think it's difficult to seamlessly tie systems together).  Make it too complicated and you lose all your choice riders.  I, for one, would rather hop on one train system and make no more than 1 transfer to get me basically where I want to go (NYC is an obvious exception where you can essentially step off one train and right onto the next 30 seconds later and it's so easy).  I do not want to change lines, change systems, then time it so that a particular bus can get me the rest of the way.  At that point a car is all too practical, even with traffic.

For this reason alone the Skyway is stupid as it's too expensive and too impractical to actually go anywhere and it's built so that if we do invest in a better form of rail, it will likely "drop you off" at a Skyway station node in the middle of nowhere like at Prime Osborn, only to make you either walk the remaining half mile through no-man's land or force you to wait 10-15 minutes for your Skyway train to take you literally a half a mile more to where you need to go.

Had Jacksonville invested in LRT the way SLC and Portland did we wouldn't be having any of these discussions of justifying "feeder" lines to the fancy monorail and then trying to see if we could tie a streetcar line to the Skyway to nowhere, etc etc.  The Skyway's scope is so small and barely extends outside of downtown (by mere blocks) such that a connection is pointless as you're "connecting" to essentially go a few more blocks, but trust me, you don't necessarily want to walk those last few blocks as that's not really that pleasant either (hey I know, why not drive! LoL).

Rather than scratching our asses for $50MM to fund an additional pointless mile of Skyway to a stadium, a sure waste (a Skyway that literally does not have the capacity to handle crowds even 1/10 the size a football game or large concert would bring), we could be putting together a plan for a real system that we know would work somewhat ok even if we built it all wrong, and the Feds could help us out!

[thelakelander]

I agree with simms3 amd Vicupstate, that a skyway extension to the stadium and nothing more, would be a waste of money and another nail in the coffin of mass transit in Jacksonville.

[Ocklawaha]

STREETCAR, MONORAIL AND CITY BUS... IT'S A BEAUTIFUL THING!

As I might be considered by some Jaxson's as the reason the Skyway is dead in it's tracks. As much as I hated, fought and would have NEVER BUILT THE DAMN THING, the only thing worse then building it, was building only half of it.  I think the Skyway needs to go ahead and anchor most of it's original route, since we've done this much and the most expensive components (The car barns and operations center and the Acosta Bridge) are already done, it's time to bite the bullet on a slightly revised expansion and completion.

My critique:

The Riverside line, should be completed about the same time and the new developments, and in the interim we should have a temporary station at Lelia and Riverside Avenue.  The bulk of the line should be scrapped in favor of a terminus at the corner of Forest and Riverside.

The Shand's Line, should at least cross State Street to a station at or near Caroline and Hogan. The health department and the new VA Clinic should breathe new life into the north line and another look should be taken on the whole thing.

The San Marco Line, This is the NUMBER ONE most needed extension of the Skyway, and it should go south from Kings Avenue, cross the Florida East Coast Railway, turn south along the west side of the railway, drop to grade and terminate in a simple station with across the platform transfer capabilities to bus on one platform and rail on the other AT ATLANTIC.

The Stadium Line, needs to be completed, but is less urgent then either San Marco line or the Temporary Riverside stop. Thought should be given to terminating this around the fairgrounds. The 60 annual events hosted by The Jaguars, Sharks, Giants and other arena events added to the 70 Suns home games means 130 days out of the year this line should be able to reach it's hourly capacity of 3,600 per direction/per hour. 130 events x 2 hours (one hour before and one after each event) comes to 260 x 3600 passengers or an increase of 936,000 passenger per year.  Keep in mind the proximity to 'East Jacksonville' and the AP Randolph business corridor would provide a steady flow of transit dependent residential customers, while proximity to the Maxwell House, Hyatt, Police, Jail and East Bay Street entertainment district would open the Skyway's market to dense employment centers. Consideration should ABSOLUTELY be given to an intermodal interchange station where the extension crosses Newnan Street and a connection with buses and STREETCAR (for 5-Points, Springfield, Riverside and King Street District).

Lastly, study extending the Jacksonville Terminal (Prime Osborn to the unwashed masses) stub, west to Myrtle Avenue and on up and over the rail yards to Woodstock Park/Farmers Market area.

ANY EXPANSION SHOULD COME WITH AN ORDER FOR 12 M/L 'CENTER CARS' which we have the drawings for, 2 per train, making at least 6, 4 car trains. As the center cars are almost double the size of the end cars this would greatly enhance the capacity of the trains.

Anyone suggesting anything more from the Skyway then this little outline, should be taken outside, stood against a wall, and SHOT! 

[Ocklawaha]

(let alone the fact that the Skyway here or elsewhere hasn't been a really good proven tool for economic development like well-planned streetcar and LRT lines have).

The Omni and adjacent Bank building as well as the Hilton complex, are all three in Jacksonville DOWNTOWN because of the Skyway. If you'll search the record, you can find printed statements about the proximity to the Skyway being key in their decisions.

[thelakelander]

^I wouldn't fault the skyway for not stimulating as much economic development as it could.  LRT or streetcars won't either, if you don't have complementing land use policies.  Over the last 20 years, we've done everything to kill it.  For example, instead of encouraging use, we've ran competing bus lines and adding a ton of parking.

One of the easiest things we can do with this new DIA is create a CRA plan that actually acknowledges the existence of mass transit and makes sure all proposed projects are designed to complement it.

[dougskiles]

One of the easiest things we can do with this new DIA is create a CRA plan that actually acknowledges the existence of mass transit and makes sure all proposed projects are designed to complement it.

This CRA plan will make or break Downtown Jacksonville.  If there was ever a time to get involved, this is it.  The DIA members are committed to success, however, we can't assume that they can do it alone.  They will need input from the community to guide their decisions and give weight to the outcome.