The problem we have to solve with U.S, healthcare.

[Adam W]

The law of supply and demand is so natural that it has never been legislated.... (not that it hasn't been meddled with legislatively) just like the law that states you must die.... not decided artificially, but by reality (nature). Perhaps technology will someday render some or all natural laws moot, but so far.... not so much.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you honestly contending that if supply and demand weren't a "natural law" it would be legislated?

And death doesn't result from the "law" of supply and demand.

I would argue that supply and demand describes a functional relationship, not a natural law. But then again, I'm not a mathematician or an economist.

[urbanlibertarian]

The profit motive in a competitive market is what makes goods and services better and cheaper.  A business is only successful if it pleases its customers more than the competition.  McDonalds is profitable because it offers its customers tasty food at a low price.  Most heathcare should work like plastic surgery and laser eye surgery does.  They tell you the price up front because you're paying, not filing a claim.  They advertise and compete against other doctors/clinics on quality and price.  I think you'll find that the quality of those services is constantly improving while the price is stable or falling.  This doesn't happen without the profit motive.  You can't take advantage of people when they have alternatives.

[buckethead]

Nobody wants to die.  Death is final.  It is a serious business.  Nothing is spared, including large sums of money and careless spending, to avoid it.  The self-serving investors and profiteers in America know this, and they take full advantage of it.  Thus we have the most expensive health care system in the world.  For most investors and board members, it is okay to profit to the max on this powerful emotion and desire to avoid death. 

Nothing is spared, except common sense, as we demand and accept obscene prices for health care.  The lack of government regulation, the American culture of greed, the race for riches at any cost to fairness to those in need, by whoever happens to be in the best or right position in any mechanism for making profits, insures continued obscene health care costs.  It’s the same old predicament wherein a few, by their advantaged positions and avoidance of fairness, rape the assets of the masses, always greasing the mechanism which shifts wealth relentlessly from the masses to themselves.             

I would suggest that government being used by sectors of the economy is what causes monopoly conditions which allow for price fixing. Insurance expands demand. expanded demand puts upward pressure on price without expanded supply.

We are so far from a 'free market' in health care that blaming the free market for soaring costs is just silly.

This is not a rant suggesting we drop all regulations/subsides/risk pooling. Just trying to sort out fact from fiction.

There is no reason we cannot do a universal coverage/single payer system here in the US. We can collectively invade sovereign nations to "make the world safe for democracy" so one would think we can collectively agree to keep US citizens as healthy as we can. (The USPS is CONSTITUTIONALLY mandated... Medical care can be too. Vital national interests and things and stuff.)

FWIW.... Obamacare does not do this. It keeps private insurers in the game of false demand, manipulated supply, and a monopolistic system.

[buckethead]

The law of supply and demand is so natural that it has never been legislated.... (not that it hasn't been meddled with legislatively) just like the law that states you must die.... not decided artificially, but by reality (nature). Perhaps technology will someday render some or all natural laws moot, but so far.... not so much.

1)That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you honestly contending that if supply and demand weren't a "natural law" it would be legislated?

2)And death doesn't result from the "law" of supply and demand.

3)I would argue that supply and demand describes a functional relationship, not a natural law. But then again, I'm not a mathematician or an economist.

1) no... I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

2) Of course not. Death was just another example of natural law. (unlegislated)

3) Functional relationship is certainly a valid statement. What is natural law, if not functional relationships?

[Adam W]

The law of supply and demand is so natural that it has never been legislated.... (not that it hasn't been meddled with legislatively) just like the law that states you must die.... not decided artificially, but by reality (nature). Perhaps technology will someday render some or all natural laws moot, but so far.... not so much.

1)That makes no sense whatsoever. Are you honestly contending that if supply and demand weren't a "natural law" it would be legislated?

2)And death doesn't result from the "law" of supply and demand.

3)I would argue that supply and demand describes a functional relationship, not a natural law. But then again, I'm not a mathematician or an economist.

1) no... I don't see how you came to that conclusion.

2) Of course not. Death was just another example of natural law. (unlegislated)

3) Functional relationship is certainly a valid statement. What is natural law, if not functional relationships?

1) you mentioned that it was so natural it hadn't been legislated. I couldn't understand what the first part of the sentence (it is so natural) had to do with the second part (it hadn't been legislated) unless the implication was that it would've been legislated had it not been so natural. Sorry if I misunderstood.

2) I get you now.

3) Okay. I guess in some cases they can be.

[strider]

U S Health care, heck, may be all heath care, is everything but a free market.  I pay, with insurance, the same to see my doctor as my friend who doesn't have insurance.  This means that the health care provider makes more off me than the friend without insurance, and yet, my insurance company insists that I save money with insurance and that they negotiate better rates.  Myself and other  family members have received large bills for procedures that the insurance company has insisted are fully covered.  When quizzed about it, we get told that either the provider used the wrong codes when submitting the bill or that they are simply trying to get you, the patient. to pay the difference between what the provider wants paid and what the insurance company has negotiated the procedure to be worth.  As it turns out, even when the codes are corrected, the provider seems bent on collecting the difference anyway and in the end, they have nothing to lose by turning it over to some collection agency. What are we, as patients, going to do about it?  In the end, after long hours on hold and long conversations with the insurance company and the provider, it often gets paid as it isn't worth fighting it anymore.  And besides, the actual doctor we see is fine, he even tries to get some visits at no charge, but of course, some accountant changes the codes to insure that doesn't happen.   

If you really want decent and free health care, become indigent and prove it.  Have nothing worth anything and the hospitals still have to treat you, perform those life saving operations and send to bills the the last known address, make calls to you on your cell phone while you are living in some field asking you for that 50K.   Before anyone says, that's why we pay so much, look at the average hospital and look at the marble, the many expansions and realize they still have more money to spend on things not needed to perform that operation.  Did they need a multi-million dollar look for the proton machine or would having the machine in some metal warehouse looking building save just as many lives?  Of course, those rich patients the hospitals really cater too would like it as much, now would they?

We could also talk about what health care providers make, but frankly, that is a two edged sword.  Pro athletes make more normally and so who deserve it more, someone who can fix your heart or just entertain you for a couple of hours every other Sunday?  Some, I'm sure, get more than their fair share, but that is the way of the world, is it not?

Hmm, in the end, it seems like greed and corruption is the most likely issue here.  As long as the system is set up for them to get away with it, they will.

[Dog Walker]

I have been inside the health care systems in most developed countries around the world and WITHOUT EXCEPTION they have lower costs and better overall outcomes than we do in this country.  Some of them are single payer, some of them are dual system and some of them use highly regulated private insurance companies.  They all work better than ours, but nobody becomes a multi-millionaire; unlike here.  (Gov. Scott for example)

[ben says]

And if you die because of the insane wait times for these procedures what would you have paid to have had it done? There is always a trade off.

People die every day in the US because they cannot even get onto a wait for the procedures, St. Auggie.

Exactly!

I have been inside the health care systems in most developed countries around the world and WITHOUT EXCEPTION they have lower costs and better overall outcomes than we do in this country.  Some of them are single payer, some of them are dual system and some of them use highly regulated private insurance companies.  They all work better than ours, but nobody becomes a multi-millionaire; unlike here.  (Gov. Scott for example)

Same experience.