The problem we have to solve with U.S, healthcare.

[JeffreyS]

[ben says]

God damn those socialist countries and their excellent healthcare!!! 

[urbanlibertarian]

Are healthcare prices immune to the law of supply and demand?  Aren't prices high because demand is out-stripping supply?  Does the Affordable Care Act do anything to increase the supply of healthcare?

[Adam W]

Supply and demand may be a factor, though it may just be that the for-profit nature of the system is what is making it so expensive in the first place:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/high-health-care-costs-its-all-in-the-pricing/2012/02/28/gIQAtbhimR_story.html

I've also heard things like malpractice insurance rates blamed for the costs as well (though I'd assume that was a very small crop in the bucket).

[ben says]

Are healthcare prices immune to the law of supply and demand?  Aren't prices high because demand is out-stripping supply?  Does the Affordable Care Act do anything to increase the supply of healthcare?

Supply and demand is not natural law. There is such thing as artificial demand. Put a McDonalds in the middle of the Amazon, people will go there. Doesn't mean there was some preexisting demand.

As Adam W pointed out, the profit-driven nature of most services obliterate the supply-and-demand system.

Subsidies are another example of why the supply/demand model doesn't necessarily work in a profit-mad system.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fresh-fruit-hold-the-insulin

^Is there a demand for this kind of crap, or do they just flood the market place because they make a shitload of money? I think it's the latter...

[Adam W]

^They create a demand! One could argue that people "want" fast food or some sort of "comfort food" or whatever. But no one realized they "needed" a Double Down until some evil genius cooked that up in a secret lab somewhere and foisted it on the unsuspecting public...

[ben says]

Exactly

[ronchamblin]

Nobody wants to die.  Death is final.  It is a serious business.  Nothing is spared, including large sums of money and careless spending, to avoid it.  The self-serving investors and profiteers in America know this, and they take full advantage of it.  Thus we have the most expensive health care system in the world.  For most investors and board members, it is okay to profit to the max on this powerful emotion and desire to avoid death. 

Nothing is spared, except common sense, as we demand and accept obscene prices for health care.  The lack of government regulation, the American culture of greed, the race for riches at any cost to fairness to those in need, by whoever happens to be in the best or right position in any mechanism for making profits, insures continued obscene health care costs.  It’s the same old predicament wherein a few, by their advantaged positions and avoidance of fairness, rape the assets of the masses, always greasing the mechanism which shifts wealth relentlessly from the masses to themselves.             

[St. Auggie]

And if you die because of the insane wait times for these procedures what would you have paid to have had it done? There is always a trade off.

[twojacks]

Just who is paying these insane prices?  I doubt anyone on this site has reached into his/her bank account to shell out this kind of money.  I recently had labs done that were billed to me for $1700...roughly $75 per vial of my blood.  Thankfully, it was an insurance glitch....adjusted bill for the insurance company $150.  No, I didn't miss type my zero's, that's what the insurance said it was worth.  My share was $50.  Thus, the insurance company paid $100.  Bottom line, we're only getting screwed if we don't have insurance.   Please note, the insurance company did not even come close to paying what I would have had to pay if I didn't have coverage.  That's what's wrong with our health care system: 1) only uninsured suckers would pay the billed price 2) since I only coughed up $50, what do I care what they charge. It is NOT listed for you or I to see the price before that or any other treatment.  If I had to pay the price charged, you bet, the next time I needed lab work, I'd ask how much it was and shop it a bit.  You'd see a giant reduction in the price they charge everyone if it weren't for the middlemen insurance company's footing (or at least appearing to foot) the 80% or 90% of the bill.  Walmart would soon be setting up shop I bet.

[Adam W]

And if you die because of the insane wait times for these procedures what would you have paid to have had it done? There is always a trade off.

I've never had to wait an "insane" time to have any procedure done on the NHS. Now I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but it is real. And in the six years I've lived in the UK, I've had to spend two nights in hospital (once for surgery), I've had to visit a specialist, I've had to go get an MRI and I'm actually in the process of being referred to a neurologist at the moment (TMI, I know - I've got chronic migraine issues that started flaring up in the past year and I've been receiving regular treatment).

I find you hear people making all sorts claims about these things - but they usually aren't based in reality or they are based on a single, abnormal case. I don't suppose anyone remembers the case of the guy who had the wrong leg amputated (in error, of course) at Tampa General Hospital a number of years back? Surely we wouldn't offer that one incident up as an indictment of the entire US healthcare system - that would be foolish. But people seem perfectly willing to pick and choose a couple of "horror stories" (usually not even true or "friend of a friend" types of stories) and accept those as proof that national healthcare services "don't work."

The critics never seem to bother looking at the success stories.

[Adam W]

Just who is paying these insane prices?  I doubt anyone on this site has reached into his/her bank account to shell out this kind of money.  I recently had labs done that were billed to me for $1700...roughly $75 per vial of my blood.  Thankfully, it was an insurance glitch....adjusted bill for the insurance company $150.  No, I didn't miss type my zero's, that's what the insurance said it was worth.  My share was $50.  Thus, the insurance company paid $100.  Bottom line, we're only getting screwed if we don't have insurance.   Please note, the insurance company did not even come close to paying what I would have had to pay if I didn't have coverage.  That's what's wrong with our health care system: 1) only uninsured suckers would pay the billed price 2) since I only coughed up $50, what do I care what they charge. It is NOT listed for you or I to see the price before that or any other treatment.  If I had to pay the price charged, you bet, the next time I needed lab work, I'd ask how much it was and shop it a bit.  You'd see a giant reduction in the price they charge everyone if it weren't for the middlemen insurance company's footing (or at least appearing to foot) the 80% or 90% of the bill.  Walmart would soon be setting up shop I bet.

True.

Similarly, there are costs associated with the NHS - but the cost to the end user is marginal. We pay £7.65 to have a prescription filled (assuming you don't qualify to get it for free). The actual cost of that prescription is probably more than £7.65, but the patient doesn't bear the entire cost.

So costs in the British (or English, in this case) system may be lower overall, but even then, as in the USA, the patient still only foots a portion of the bill - insurance picks up the majority of it.

And that's assuming one is using the public option, of course.

[ben says]

And if you die because of the insane wait times for these procedures what would you have paid to have had it done? There is always a trade off.

I've never had to wait an "insane" time to have any procedure done on the NHS. Now I realize this is anecdotal evidence, but it is real. And in the six years I've lived in the UK, I've had to spend two nights in hospital (once for surgery), I've had to visit a specialist, I've had to go get an MRI and I'm actually in the process of being referred to a neurologist at the moment (TMI, I know - I've got chronic migraine issues that started flaring up in the past year and I've been receiving regular treatment).

I find you hear people making all sorts claims about these things - but they usually aren't based in reality or they are based on a single, abnormal case. I don't suppose anyone remembers the case of the guy who had the wrong leg amputated (in error, of course) at Tampa General Hospital a number of years back? Surely we wouldn't offer that one incident up as an indictment of the entire US healthcare system - that would be foolish. But people seem perfectly willing to pick and choose a couple of "horror stories" (usually not even true or "friend of a friend" types of stories) and accept those as proof that national healthcare services "don't work."

The critics never seem to bother looking at the success stories.

Agree. Last time we were in Amsterdam, my dad was having an emergency ashtma situation. Between finding a doctor, getting a doctor, getting checked out and fixed, an prescriptions, total price was $0.00, and total wait time was about 20 minutes.

Nobody wants to die.  Death is final.  It is a serious business.  Nothing is spared, including large sums of money and careless spending, to avoid it.  The self-serving investors and profiteers in America know this, and they take full advantage of it.  Thus we have the most expensive health care system in the world.  For most investors and board members, it is okay to profit to the max on this powerful emotion and desire to avoid death. 

Nothing is spared, except common sense, as we demand and accept obscene prices for health care.  The lack of government regulation, the American culture of greed, the race for riches at any cost to fairness to those in need, by whoever happens to be in the best or right position in any mechanism for making profits, insures continued obscene health care costs.  It’s the same old predicament wherein a few, by their advantaged positions and avoidance of fairness, rape the assets of the masses, always greasing the mechanism which shifts wealth relentlessly from the masses to themselves.             

+1000

[buckethead]

Are healthcare prices immune to the law of supply and demand?  Aren't prices high because demand is out-stripping supply?  Does the Affordable Care Act do anything to increase the supply of healthcare?

Supply and demand is not natural law. There is such thing as artificial demand. Put a McDonalds in the middle of the Amazon, people will go there. Doesn't mean there was some preexisting demand.

As Adam W pointed out, the profit-driven nature of most services obliterate the supply-and-demand system.

Subsidies are another example of why the supply/demand model doesn't necessarily work in a profit-mad system.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fresh-fruit-hold-the-insulin

^Is there a demand for this kind of crap, or do they just flood the market place because they make a shitload of money? I think it's the latter...

Supply/Demand is the most natural of laws. The demand for food always existed prior to the choice of a Mc Donalds. Opening a Mickey D's merely expanded choice (supply) in the demand market.

There are of course, artificial pressures on supply and demand. Let's focus on that for a nanosecond..... we might get to the heart of the issue. Let's see..... what could be examples of artificial pressures on supply and demand relating to health care.... hmmmmmm....





thinking...........





I got nuttin... Anyone?

[buckethead]

The law of supply and demand is so natural that it has never been legislated.... (not that it hasn't been meddled with legislatively) just like the law that states you must die.... not decided artificially, but by reality (nature). Perhaps technology will someday render some or all natural laws moot, but so far.... not so much.