Fresh Market on Riverside Ave!

[duvaldude08]

Whow!! DT is looking up! It would be nice to see that strecth of Riverside Ave active and not just parcels of land.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

i dunno, fsujax.  i think he's got a point.  there's already more than enough housing floating around this area, and if we delude ourselves into believing that we need more, why get it from someöne who's pissed off the residents ov several other towns.  i'm indifferent about the fresh market itself, but the rest ov the plan looks like bullshit.

[thelakelander]

I'm surprised there aren't more negative opinions of the site plan.  The development would fit in better next to SJTC than right in Brooklyn, FYI.  It's going to be CHEAP stucco stick apartments, surface parking (essentially suburban garden apartments) with a strip center next door.  I know the allure of Fresh Market is strong, but are we really going to **** all the developers' **** to get that Fresh Market?

At this point in time, cheap stucco stick apartments (everyone can't afford $2k/month for an 1bd/1ba apartment), surface parking and a strip mall are fine, with the right site layout.  The reality is Brooklyn isn't going to instantly turn into Midtown Atlanta or Brickell.  It's perfectly okay infilling incrementally at all price points as long as the developments are pedestrian scale along the street and fit into their surroundings.  Anything proposed would have to go through the design review process, so the opportunity to enhance the site layout stands.

I really love the fact that all these projects are coming to Brooklyn.  A Fresh Market would be amazing there.    I'll take what we can get, but am I the only one looking at site plan thinking it looks a bit too suburban for this part of the core?

Again, If this is as good as it gets, I'll it any day of the week over abandoned grassland, but it looks rather suburban to me.

While Simms has taken it to the opposite end, you don't have to lay down and except every bad plan that comes across your desk.  Simple modifications can possibly enhance the developer's profit and the surrounding streetscape.  In this case, you can demand better without raising the developer's construction costs by simply revising the site layout. 

For example, here is a quick alternative simply moving the same boxes around on the site.  I wouldn't be surprised if this gets Fuqua more surface parking to accommodate additional retail pads while also providing the retail with higher visibility from the street.



Here are some images from various places incorporating elements of what's shown above.

1.  Move specialty retail and one big box up to Riverside Avenue at main entrance to provide an impressive multimodal friendly entrance.


2.  Buffer surface parking from main entry point to apartments, similar to this situation on Naples' 5th Avenue.



3. The better parking layout creates space for additional retail pads at entrance to apartments on main access drive.


4. Typical bix box surface parking in middle of site, hidden from street.


5. Back of a Publix in Downtown Fort Myers


6-1. Push outparcels up to street


6-2. You can even include a courtyard that provides outdoor dining and visibility to big box in rear.

[thelakelander]

i dunno, fsujax.  i think he's got a point.  there's already more than enough housing floating around this area, and if we delude ourselves into believing that we need more, why get it from someöne who's pissed off the residents ov several other towns.  i'm indifferent about the fresh market itself, but the rest ov the plan looks like bullshit.

There actually isn't enough multifamily rental properties available in the downtown area.  That's why 200 Riverside and Riverside Park have popped up.

[Captain Zissou]

Give it a rest Simms. Geez. Just chill out.

It seriously sounds like a few people on this thread are drunk and they're mad at Simms for trying to call them a cab.  That site plan is horrendous.  This looks almost identical to the target on Roosevelt, the Target/Publix on San Jose in Mandarin, the Target/Comp USA center on Southside, the BestBuy on Southside, the Markets at Town Center........ ETC.  Brooklyn is one of our last opportunities in town to create smart development and mid-high density residential that will tie our two densest neighborhoods together.  Currently it's a blank slate and the possibilities are endless.  If this project is approved without serious modifications to its orientation to the street, we'll be putting the area, DT, and the urban core at a big disadvantage and it will set a horrible precedent.  Jacksonville can't afford to throw away Brooklyn to some hot shot developer with a power point.  I think downtown has some momentum going for it now that will embolden the DIA and DDRB to force the developer to improve their site plan, but if this development goes in it will really fail to meet the potential of this neighborhood. I could pass on it.

[Jason]

Lake, I understand your points completely, however, I have to say that Brooklyn is technically "Downtown" and should not be developed with single story/single use retail structures lining the riverfront skyline.  Your proposed revamp works perfectly for lower density areas such as Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, etc. 

We need developments like 200 Riverside and Everbank Center to populate that corridor allowing a higher density mixture of uses out of each property.  That entire development could be stacked up on one parcel versus spreading out in a "feaux urban" suburban layout.

[fsujax]

Guys i agree the site plan can be revised to better to fit the area. It just seems Simms is always finding some way to trash Jacksonville and is trying to make us believe how much better everything in Atlanta is.

[duvaldude08]

While we are all having cows, Is everyone missing that the site layout can be changed? I think is the point Lake is making.

[simms3]

I'm surprised there aren't more negative opinions of the site plan.  The development would fit in better next to SJTC than right in Brooklyn, FYI.  It's going to be CHEAP stucco stick apartments, surface parking (essentially suburban garden apartments) with a strip center next door.  I know the allure of Fresh Market is strong, but are we really going to **** all the developers' **** to get that Fresh Market?

At this point in time, cheap stucco stick apartments (everyone can't afford $2k/month for an 1bd/1ba apartment), surface parking and a strip mall are fine, with the right site layout.  The reality is Brooklyn isn't going to instantly turn into Midtown Atlanta or Brickell.  It's perfectly okay infilling incrementally at all price points as long as the developments are pedestrian scale along the street and fit into their surroundings.  Anything proposed would have to go through the design review process, so the opportunity to enhance the site layout stands.

I do agree Jax is not ready for $2K 600SF 1BRs.  Neither is anywhere else in the south in abundance with few microcosmic exceptions here and there.  I do think Jax is ready for $150K/unit construction and $1.50psf/mo rents in small doses here and there, which can be achieved with a major modification of the design.  The rents at some of those newer/upscale ~100-200 unit devs going up near SJTC are going to really push the limits for Jax...I think it would be easier to push these rents in an urban development that might appeal to young 25-30 year old transplants used to living in similar projects in other cities (and paying more).

Instead of doing all 4-6 blocks at once, why not try to test the waters with 1-2?  Fresh Market most likely needs to "front" Riverside Ave to go in there (hence its facing the Ave in the original site plan).  One redeeming quality was the wide sidewalk separating the Ave and the dev and the curb cuts/ingress/egress points on the side streets rather than ON the Ave (which undoubtedly would never fly, even in an unprogressive town, given the potential traffic nightmare).

Why not develop just those two blocks, which are only 1 block down from the proposed 225 Riverside, into apartment wrapped garages with ground floor retail, and a corner cutout for the Fresh Market (putting one directly below apartments *would* increase the hard costs and therefore the rents significantly.  I've seen too many examples of what I just described in cities the size of Jax (or in suburban areas trying to densify/become more walkable).  Jax can do the same.

The last thing the site needs is surface parking anywhere.  Asphalt parking should in fact be illegal in FL altogether (at mininum go for stained concrete rather than black tar).

Given the limited amount of knowledge I have about development, and judging by the decision of the market, the product, the quality, who's behind it, etc...these guys are trying to move capital as fast as possible.  They are essentially "using" Jacksonville to put in cheap apartments and a strip center because none of the developers have anything major going on anywhere else (and at least one *can't* get any projects approved elsewhere because they are so bad).

What is deemed by some to be a positive (and it HAS positives, don't get me wrong) is none other than a desperate attempt by others (kind of like sloppy seconds, except there weren't even firsts...or all the firsts were repulsed and won't have anymore after their bad experience)

[thelakelander]

Lake, I understand your points completely, however, I have to say that Brooklyn is technically "Downtown" and should not be developed with single story/single use retail structures lining the riverfront skyline.  Your proposed revamp works perfectly for lower density areas such as Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, etc. 

We need developments like 200 Riverside and Everbank Center to populate that corridor allowing a higher density mixture of uses out of each property.  That entire development could be stacked up on one parcel versus spreading out in a "feaux urban" suburban layout.

I might be one of the few downtown advocates out there who doesn't believe we're going to see it mushroom into the next urban mecca before 2020. 

With our vacancy rates and the change in the amount of office space needed for many companies, we'd wait 30 years for this corridor to be infilled with additional Everbank Centers.  Even 200 Riverside has been a decade in the making and a part of that decade was one of the largest urban boom periods in the last 50 years.

I don't see single or two story commercial on this property being a problem at this point.  However, I also don't see Brooklyn or LaVilla as being "downtown" either.  The only thing making them "downtown" or a part of the "CBD" is the JEDC's imaginary borders that have been extended over the years.  They're historically low rise urban core neighborhoods that can still be more dense than anything else in Jax by just filling in.  I'm prefectly fine if those neighborhoods infill into an environment and scale similar to Savannah, Charleston or DC.  Besides, by the time all of our underutilized lots fill in, this development will have served its natural life anyway and would just become an infill redevelopment site 30 years down the line.

[simms3]

Guys i agree the site plan can be revised to better to fit the area. It just seems Simms is always finding some way to trash Jacksonville and is trying to make us believe how much better everything in Atlanta is.

You are pretty funny (and completely misguided).  Why would I bring up Atlanta (and Denver and other cities) in this convo?  Because the friggin developers hail from there and there are relevant situations going on...there.  Bend over and take whatever they give you and don't complain in 10 years when finally there is momentum in the area and some developers from the utopia that is Atlanta came in and raped the city of Jacksonville, creating an evil red-headed stepchild in the form of strip malls on downtown's doorway and apartments that won't look any better than projects in 5 years.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

actually isn't enough multifamily rental properties available in the downtown area.  That's why 200 Riverside and Riverside Park have popped up.

i may've spoken a little sloppily--i realize there's a shortage ov stuff that can be rented tomorrow--but the buildings are there, they just need work.  i believe we should fix existing buildings before paying out-ov-towners to throw new ones up.

[thelakelander]

Instead of doing all 4-6 blocks at once, why not try to test the waters with 1-2?  Fresh Market most likely needs to "front" Riverside Ave to go in there (hence its facing the Ave in the original site plan).

What's wrong with developing all six blocks between 2-4 stories?  It's not like we have a space crunch on land, which would make denser projects more financially feasible.

Why not develop just those two blocks, which are only 1 block down from the proposed 225 Riverside, into apartment wrapped garages with ground floor retail, and a corner cutout for the Fresh Market (putting one directly below apartments *would* increase the hard costs and therefore the rents significantly.  I've seen too many examples of what I just described in cities the size of Jax (or in suburban areas trying to densify/become more walkable).  Jax can do the same.

Primarily higher construction costs.  However, that doesn't mean this won't happen on other blocks within the core.  We've got room for a variety of projects at different scales and market prices.  At this point, I'd be more concerned with getting a few initial developments off of paper and into reality, while making sure they work at pedestrian level.

The last thing the site needs is surface parking anywhere.  Asphalt parking should in fact be illegal in FL altogether (at mininum go for stained concrete rather than black tar).

Force every development in this area to have structured parking and we might was well rename Brooklyn, Eastside Detroit.  Because other than a project or two, most of the land will sit empty.

Given the limited amount of knowledge I have about development, and judging by the decision of the market, the product, the quality, who's behind it, etc...these guys are trying to move capital as fast as possible.  They are essentially "using" Jacksonville to put in cheap apartments and a strip center because none of the developers have anything major going on anywhere else (and at least one *can't* get any projects approved elsewhere because they are so bad).

What is deemed by some to be a positive (and it HAS positives, don't get me wrong) is none other than a desperate attempt by others (kind of like sloppy seconds, except there weren't even firsts...or all the firsts were repulsed and won't have anymore after their bad experience)

[/quote]

Jax hasn't gotten laid in a while and its always the last person selected for the pick up basketball game. Now the head cheerleader has taken interest for whatever reason.  You can have a little fun with Atlanta's sloppy seconds without marrying her. Just ask Kayne West if he's enjoying Ray J's and Reggie Bush's leftovers!

[thelakelander]

actually isn't enough multifamily rental properties available in the downtown area.  That's why 200 Riverside and Riverside Park have popped up.

i may've spoken a little sloppily--i realize there's a shortage ov stuff that can be rented tomorrow--but the buildings are there, they just need work.  i believe we should fix existing buildings before paying out-ov-towners to throw new ones up.

Unless you're going to give away the house in incentives, not all buildings can be renovated into similar projects.  Riverside Park is a 300 unit apartment project.  There is no existing site in the Northbank that is readily available to be renovated into what they are proposing.

[KuroiKetsunoHana]

i'm probably exposing my naiveté here, but a 300-unit apartment building isn't enough?  if that many people need apartments in the area, where the hell are they staying now?