Tour groups flocking to Town Center

[Tacachale]

in an empty tract of land, a massive regional shopping center has sprung up

That's my issue with the place.  With all the half-empty, run-down developments spread out all over Duval County, was it really necessary to destroy yet another piece of irreplaceable nature?

It wasn't empty or natural at the time, it was a large farm. IMO the SJTC developer in particular can't be blamed for the city opening the area up to development decades before. And of course the general lameness of malls isn't specific to the SJTC. What they can be blamed for is the terrible planning.

[Wacca Pilatka]

If I go to STJC more than once* over the course of my visit to Jacksonville next weekend, I expect First Coast News to run the headline "Wacca Flocking to Town Center."  LOL!


*No, I'm not planning to go there at all

[simms3]

Town Center in the name is a marketing gimmick.  It's a friggin outdoor mall people.  It has the same general layout, the outlying circulator (road), the same tenants, the same tenant buildouts as seen in indoor malls, the same sea of parking surrounding the mall, a power center next door that happens to be developed by same group, highway visibility and access, etc etc etc.

The name might as well be "The Avenues and Then Some, Rain or Shine".

We should get over expecting anything spectacular from the place, but it has become a hub on the SS and should eventually be connected to downtown by rail via the office parks and Phillips corridor in between.

[thelakelander]

I agree. SJTC is basically a mall without a roof. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect it to become anything more than that.

[Seraphs]

What is everyone buying there? I still haven't bought anything there yet.

Ipods, iphones, and cheese cake from The Cheesecake Factory.  Banana-my personal favorite.

[Seraphs]

Personally, I like the SJTC.  It has a nice feel to it, and I've been in malls all over the country.  My problem with the SJTC is I wish it were DT on the southbank at the old generator site.

[thelakelander]

Most malls like SJTC happen to be in similar suburban locations.  It's simply easier for a developer to assemble a cheap large track of property than doing the same in a highly urbanized area or waterfront location.

[Ocklawaha]

Where are the tour groups originating from?  Are these local tours that are making SJTC a stop or are these groups originating in cities like Orlando and Altanta and coming to Jax to shop?  I suspect they are tours that either originate locally or from smaller communities throughout the region.  If the later, that's typical of a region's premier shopping destination.

Actually your dead on target Ennis. When I was at Trailway's, we had a host of well paid executive types that scoured the countryside for the newest tour experience. A package created in Atlanta, or Orlando, might very well have a shopping trip at SJTC. Maybe they're selling it as a relaxing day of quality shopping, and it's no doubt tied with other area attractions. When you create a tour you already know the demographics of the target market, shoot for history, colonial times, pre-colonial, pre-columbian, all the way through the War of Yankee Aggression, and Jacksonville stands out as a perfect destination. You've got a 5 day itinerary to fill and not all of it can be walking through Fort Caroline. Yeah, might hate to admit it but SJTC is the perfect, sparkling tour stop. I say bring on those Prevost's, MCI'S, Eagles, Van Hool's, M.A.N.'S, Setra's, Volvo's and any spare old school buses you have laying around, "Keep Jacksonville green - BRING MONEY."

[peestandingup]

I agree. SJTC is basically a mall without a roof. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't expect it to become anything more than that.

Its actually worse because indoor malls are at least navigable on foot. You park, go in, and don't see your car again until you're leaving. And you're not dodging other cars the whole time while you're shopping either.

SJTC is like someone ripped off the roof of a mall, picked up everything & scattered all the stores/restaurants across a giant plot of land, letting everything fall wherever. Injecting parking & roads everywhere you look.

It wouldn't be that bad if they had some kind of transit (like this outdoor mall in Glendale CA). Would it have killed the developers to lay a simple track & buy some old vintage streetcar for cheap??

[thelakelander]

^It's actually a hybrid of a lifestyle center (fancy name for the outdoor malls these days) and a power center (a shopping center full of big box stores).  You can navigate the lifestyle component very easily.   The power center is like the rest in Jax and everywhere else.  You can walk on the sidewalk running along side the big boxes or you can risk your life cutting across acres of asphalt.  Locally, Gateway Mall is your 1960s version of this.  Regency is similar as well except the power centers happen to be strip malls to the north and south of it, on the other side of busy highways.

Also, why would the developer want to lay streetcar tracks?  They are perfectly fine with people driving between the development's components if they want to and already making a killing at what has been created.  There's no financial incentive for them operating their own fixed transit service. 

[peestandingup]

^It's actually a hybrid of a lifestyle center (fancy name for the outdoor malls these days) and a power center (a shopping center full of big box stores).  You can navigate the lifestyle component very easily.   The power center is like the rest in Jax and everywhere else.  You can walk on the sidewalk running along side the big boxes or you can risk your life cutting across acres of asphalt.  Locally, Gateway Mall is your 1960s version of this.  Regency is similar as well except the power centers happen to be strip malls to the north and south of it, on the other side of busy highways.

Also, why would the developer want to lay streetcar tracks?  They are perfectly fine with people driving between the development's components if they want to and already making a killing at what has been created.  There's no financial incentive for them operating their own fixed transit service.

Very true. But its still all part of the "town center" & same shopping destination in general. The fact is, if you're not sticking along the "main drag", you can't navigate it on foot. For one, its too spread out. And two, its too dangerous & just not set up for that. A small transit system would alleviate all of that. Shoppers would be more likely to browse the entire area (and spend more money), instead of just small pockets at a time, then driving around fighting for spaces in front of the door.

The developers (esp here) certainly never even considered doing anything different as far as transit. And you're right, why would they? It would just cost them extra. And everyone loves their cars & will be brining them in anyway, right?? But thats the problem here. No oversight & no guidelines. Developers getting free reign to do whatever they want.

BUT, it seems popular, so maybe thats what people want? I on the other hand can't stand going over there for those exact reasons. Its nerve racking & just not enjoyable, for me anyway.

[thelakelander]

^It's actually a hybrid of a lifestyle center (fancy name for the outdoor malls these days) and a power center (a shopping center full of big box stores).  You can navigate the lifestyle component very easily.   The power center is like the rest in Jax and everywhere else.  You can walk on the sidewalk running along side the big boxes or you can risk your life cutting across acres of asphalt.  Locally, Gateway Mall is your 1960s version of this.  Regency is similar as well except the power centers happen to be strip malls to the north and south of it, on the other side of busy highways.

Also, why would the developer want to lay streetcar tracks?  They are perfectly fine with people driving between the development's components if they want to and already making a killing at what has been created.  There's no financial incentive for them operating their own fixed transit service.

Very true. But its still all part of the "town center" & same shopping destination in general. The fact is, if you're not sticking along the "main drag", you can't navigate it on foot. For one, its too spread out. And two, its too dangerous & just not set up for that.

This is the situation with nearly every mall and strip mall in Jacksonville and Florida.  Get off the main path (if there is one) and you're screwed because our policies push toward accommodating cars over of people. It's one of the reasons we have the highest pedestrian death rates in the nation.

A small transit system would alleviate all of that. Shoppers would be more likely to browse the entire area (and spend more money), instead of just small pockets at a time, then driving around fighting for spaces in front of the door.

This is something that should come at a public level and should not be internal and isolated to specific developments.  This is why its important to integrate supportive land use and transportation policies on a city wide level.  When you don't you get lots of isolated developments with poor connectivity for anything other than cars.

The developers (esp here) certainly never even considered doing anything different as far as transit. And you're right, why would they? It would just cost them extra. And everyone loves their cars & will be brining them in anyway, right?? But thats the problem here. No oversight & no guidelines. Developers getting free reign to do whatever they want.

BUT, it seems popular, so maybe thats what people want? I on the other hand can't stand going over there for those exact reasons. Its nerve racking & just not enjoyable, for me anyway.

I can't even blame Ben Carter for the layout of the SJTC.  That could have been pushed a certain way at the public level if we valued those types of multimodal friendly and human scale policies.  SJTC is just a result of the system we have in place.

[I-10east]

Seven years later, we are still having the same conversations about the SJTC's layout *currently pulling my hair out*

I know that everyone is gonna disagree with me, but I don't think it's a troublesome journey navigating around the actual SJTC. Too me, what's more problematic is the layout of the Markets at St Johns (I believe that's what it's called) where Libretto's, Suite etc are at. I believe that it's only one way in and out of there (to Gate).

[thelakelander]

SJTC doesn't really bother me because I don't view it as a neighborhood or competition with an environment like downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.  Despite the name, its simply a suburban regional mall designed according to what our land use policies promote.  Nothing more, nothing less.  If we don't like the result, we need to modify the regulations in the zoning code.

I have no idea how one would walk out of the Markets at SJTC to Gate.  Whatever route you choose, you'll be crossing multiple curb cuts with turning automobiles and nothing to protect you from the natural elements along your trip.

[fsujax]

My only reason for going there is Costco and maybe when Nordstrom opens. It is "anywhere" USA.  The best way to get around is driving behind the mall where the loading docks are.