Riverfront green space mulled to help downtown Jacksonville

[thelakelander]

The Mayor's Office is exploring the idea of adding more greenspace to the Northbank riverfront to draw more people downtown.  What do you think?

Early ideas have envisioned a site having water features, a Ferris wheel or similar elements “to really attract residents as well as visitors,” said Finley, who mentioned the subject during a talk this week to the North Florida chapter of the U.S. Green Building Council.

Chicago’s Navy Pier and the oceanfront at Myrtle Beach, S.C., both featuring long walkways and large observation wheels, have been offered as examples.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-09-21/story/riverfront-green-space-mulled-help-downtown-jacksonville

[thelakelander]

My initial reaction is that talk of riverfront ferris wheels and Chicago's Navy Pier are over complicating things.  If you want more people downtown you should first ask yourself:

1. Why?

If you want more people down there to walk on the streets and support businesses, then "where" a green space is needed must be discussed.  I know everyone focuses on the Shipyards and old courthouse site but Hemming Plaza, the existing linear greenspace between the Landing and CSX, and the new courthouse plaza are all better located for stimulating foot traffic near a higher number of existing businesses.  If that's the case, you may be more effective improving an existing greenspace and the business district surrounding it instead of adding another.

2. What Type?

What type of people are you trying to attract downtown?  This answer could take you in different ways.  If you want to attract suburbanites, talk like ferris wheels and Chicago's Navy Pier rise to the top.  The risk you put taxpayers in, in this discussion is those are things that will cost tons of money and will only be visited by people a limited time before they grow stale.  Navy Pier's success has more to do with it being near the Loop with millions of tourist visiting that Chicago moreso than anything else. 

If you want downtown to be self sustainable, than your moves would take you in a direction that makes it more attractive to a larger segment of the local population base for residing there.  So instead of Ferris Wheels and navy pier, things as simple as kid's playgrounds (Hemming would be a great spot for one), better public schools for kids of downtown residents, looking at how existing businesses/buildings meet the sidewalks, doing something with the Landing, allowing fishing from the riverwalk, etc. makes more sense.  Doing a mix of these small scale incremental improvements would also be a lot cheaper.  Long term, a viable self sustaining downtown will also pull suburbanites because it will have developed a unique sense of place that isn't contrived.

3. Where?

I mentioned it above, but this is very important.  Downtown's activities are too spread out. The idea of attracting more people should be focused on attracting them to a spot where decent density and pedestrian scale connectivity is already in place.  With a few exceptions you can basically box out the area between Church, Julia, the river and Main as an initial focus area.  With that in mind, instead of doing something completely new, Hemming Plaza, Laura Street, Hogan Street, the Parador parking garage site, the Landing/TU Performing Arts corridor stand out to me.  In those spots, whatever you do is immediately interconnected to existing building fabric, mass transit and hundreds of struggling businesses in the heart of the city.

These are just three of many issues (not to mention do we even have an overall unified vision of what we want our downtown to be?)  that should be vetted before moving forward with the idea of adding more green space to the Northbank.

[thelakelander]

Whatever happened to this idea from 2007:

The site is unique in that it is bordered by a shopping center, a live entertainment venue, the Northbank Riverwalk and a high-density commercial area.

“We have a lot of great assets Downtown, but they’re not connected. We decided if we were going to propose a space, it needs to connect other spaces,” said Barakat. “This location is attractive because of its proximity to the Landing and the T-U Center. It’s also within walking distance of several office buildings and the surrounding property owners support the idea.”

“There are several benefits associated with areas where people can congregate that have shade trees. It creates a sense of humanity and opens up communication among people. Studies have shown parks and shopping go together. People will actually spend more money in a shopping center that is adjacent to a park,” said Dooley.

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=47655

Out of all the public space proposals I've seen made for downtown over the years, this is probably one of the best.  It actually better utilizes an existing greenspace and dead end street along the waterfront that is directly connected to a mix of existing uses.  Perhaps this old proposal should be dusted off and combined with a remake of the Jacksonville Landing, which should include opening its courtyard (another interactive waterfront public space) up to Laura Street.

[Mathew1056]

I love that you've pulled this article from the grave. Replacing a dead end road with green space that both the Time-Union Center and the Landing could utilize is a great idea. Per square foot I think that design has the potential to have a large impact on the Northbank. I'm all for replacing places for car with places for people, especially downtown. If only that project could be revived. 

[tufsu1]

I am so excited about a ferris wheel...I mean maybe I'll be able to see my house 6 blocks away from the top

[thelakelander]

You mean you wouldn't rush home from work to ride it everyday?

[jcjohnpaint]

This green space is so big and out of the way of the core that would create the problem of making a lot of people seem like not such a big crowd- compared to a smaller group of people in a smaller space such as Hemming. 
I think the location could pull people out of the core and over to a fringe property.  People would come visit the shipyards and not even visit DT.  They could come in and out without really driving through DT (if we are talking about DT being the Core where anything is happening).
I think the mayor has to be careful about his approach to DT revitalization.  With Jacksonville's negative outlook on DT and past wasted tax payer money for such projects- this mayor only has about one big blunder before nobody is listening anymore.   

[deusebio]

My initial reaction is that talk of riverfront ferris wheels and Chicago's Navy Pier are over complicating things.  If you want more people downtown you should first ask yourself:

1. Why?

If you want more people down there to walk on the streets and support businesses, then "where" a green space is needed must be discussed.  I know everyone focuses on the Shipyards and old courthouse site but Hemming Plaza, the existing linear greenspace between the Landing and CSX, and the new courthouse plaza are all better located for stimulating foot traffic near a higher number of existing businesses.  If that's the case, you may be more effective improving an existing greenspace and the business district surrounding it instead of adding another.

2. What Type?

What type of people are you trying to attract downtown?  This answer could take you in different ways.  If you want to attract suburbanites, talk like ferris wheels and Chicago's Navy Pier rise to the top.  The risk you put taxpayers in, in this discussion is those are things that will cost tons of money and will only be visited by people a limited time before they grow stale.  Navy Pier's success has more to do with it being near the Loop with millions of tourist visiting that Chicago moreso than anything else. 

If you want downtown to be self sustainable, than your moves would take you in a direction that makes it more attractive to a larger segment of the local population base for residing there.  So instead of Ferris Wheels and navy pier, things as simple as kid's playgrounds (Hemming would be a great spot for one), better public schools for kids of downtown residents, looking at how existing businesses/buildings meet the sidewalks, doing something with the Landing, allowing fishing from the riverwalk, etc. makes more sense.  Doing a mix of these small scale incremental improvements would also be a lot cheaper.  Long term, a viable self sustaining downtown will also pull suburbanites because it will have developed a unique sense of place that isn't contrived.

3. Where?

I mentioned it above, but this is very important.  Downtown's activities are too spread out. The idea of attracting more people should be focused on attracting them to a spot where decent density and pedestrian scale connectivity is already in place.  With a few exceptions you can basically box out the area between Church, Julia, the river and Main as an initial focus area.  With that in mind, instead of doing something completely new, Hemming Plaza, Laura Street, Hogan Street, the Parador parking garage site, the Landing/TU Performing Arts corridor stand out to me.  In those spots, whatever you do is immediately interconnected to existing building fabric, mass transit and hundreds of struggling businesses in the heart of the city.

These are just three of many issues (not to mention do we even have an overall unified vision of what we want our downtown to be?)  that should be vetted before moving forward with the idea of adding more green space to the Northbank.

Has any of the past studies commissioned informed them on the best use of these types of opportunities? I want to say I've seen some presentations on things but didn't know if they were actually applying those suggestions.

[Steve_Lovett]

The area under consideration referenced in the newspaper article is the Shipyards property --- extending from Berkman to/through Metropolitan Park, not Hogan Street Park (a concept that makes a lot of sense).

[thelakelander]

Not to say that it doesn't make sense to consider converting the Shipyards property to include green space but how does that fit within the greater realm of what we are trying to achieve downtown?  Where should it rank in terms of downtown priorities?

It's no secret that the shipyards is a good half mile to a mile away from the heart of the Northbank core.  It's also no secret that a well implemented urban park could run you into the realm of $50 - $100 million to construct.  No matter how much money we pour into it, we'll need to properly address the outer square (area around it) moreso than the space itself, if we want it to truly generate traffic in downtown that economically enhances the businesses there.

One of the things, I ask myself these days with every public downtown project is, if we did have a significant amount of cash laying around, would such a project be the best use of those funds or should such a project be considered a top priority?  At this point, I don't know if the Shipyards even makes the Top 5, simply due to its general location and what surrounds it.

As for the Shipyards site, I'm one of the people out there who believe the entire property should not be devoted to green space.  I find the best urban recreational spaces are those that are well integrated with the properties surrounding it.  So my focus would be what is the scene along Bay Street and north of it, moreso than should a ferris wheel or soccer field be inside of the green space.  Thus, I prefer the city to carve out the green space it desires and to integrate that green space with areas for private development. 

However, like a convention center, it's not going to be the redevelopment pony many view it as.  Unfortunately, the location will limit its economic benefits at least initially (like a good decade until infill or some transit connectivity can occur).

[JFman00]

This park seems pretty cheap to implement with a versatility of uses and ease of access:


Crawfish boil


Kite festival


Just a park on a nice day


http://goo.gl/maps/5BKkX

When I visited and was biking from Fisherman's Wharf to the Golden Gate Bridge, it was a fairly chilly spring day. Yet, the park was full of people playing soccer, flying kites, playing with their pets. Seems like the low-rise, medium density residential neighborhood just used the area as their own backyard.

What's Downtown's backyard? The microparks on the Southbank? Metropolitan Park a mile and a half and a freeway away from anything? The tiny, overwrought attempts at City Beautiful-style parks on the border with Springfield?

[thelakelander]

The tiny, overwrought attempts at City Beautiful-style parks on the border with Springfield?

This mile long park was downtown's backyard for several decades during the 20th century.  Before then, it would have been Hemming Plaza, since the entire city was pretty much the Northbank.

[Adam W]

I think a green space or any other type of amenity (like a Ferris wheel) could be a good thing. But I don't think simply building/developing it and leaving it there to rot is the way to go. Adding a green space on to downtown won't attract many more people after the initial crowds who go to see what the fuss is about. Once the buzz dies down, it will turn into another place no one goes.

Downtown needs a strategy. A green space or anything else needs to be part of a development (or redevelopment) plan that addresses getting businesses and residents back into downtown.

Just my 2 cents.

[jaxjags]

If the area  becomes a park for now and is not developed with a "home run" type plan, what is the harm in selling (or long term lease) a portion to Intuition Ale for a brewery on the west end near DT. If the space is too big for a usable park, then let them make part of it productive now. That end is closer to those who live DT. It would be nice to have an open seating area  for a tasting room facing a park.
End nearest sports complex could be used for special events activities, especially if an indoor practice facility is built that  uses land near the stadium.
This still leaves space in middle for park that must include the pier. And in the future low and mid rise development can occur closer to Bay Street.

[ben says]

If the area  becomes a park for now and is not developed with a "home run" type plan, what is the harm in selling (or long term lease) a portion to Intuition Ale for a brewery on the west end near DT. If the space is too big for a usable park, then let them make part of it productive now. That end is closer to those who live DT. It would be nice to have an open seating area  for a tasting room facing a park.
End nearest sports complex could be used for special events activities, especially if an indoor practice facility is built that  uses land near the stadium.
This still leaves space in middle for park that must include the pier. And in the future low and mid rise development can occur closer to Bay Street.

Stop thinking rationally!!! Think irrationally, then you'll have a first-hand glimpse into the mind of COJ.