While Jaxport sleeps....Baltimore is ready

[spuwho]

Roads (if local) and any other infrastructure I can see COJ footing some of the bill unless its a state or US route, then their are other sources.

The CSX work is being paid for by the SunRail Orlando deal, where the money paid out by the state to CSX is being plowed back into the Jaxport project, so they are covered.

I agree on the "ports commission" issue when compared to a Savannah or Charleston, they are each states sole ocean port, so they get all of the attention respectively. Florida is nearly surrounded by water, but not all the ports in Florida have access to muti-modal transport. Charleston has a significant rail bottleneck and is reliant on Atlanta as a hub for distribution. Savannah has a dredging issue more significant than Jacksonville.

But back to the issue at hand, I am just trying to find out what COJ is on the hook for on the Jaxport initiatives. Why would Jaxport be a better investment of dollars then a Baltimore for example, why would a shipper prefer Jaxport over another deep water port farther up the coast?

[thelakelander]

JAXPORT can't grow without investments in infrastructure needed to support that desired growth. So surrounding roads, utilities, railroad investments become a part of the mix to. In addition, many communities are finding that if they want to compete economically, they can't rely only on limited federal funding. When time is of essence, it becomes important to incorporate a mix of funding sources to spend up implemention. In JAXPORT's case, we're already years behind most of our peers in the post Panama race. If this is an area we'd really like to compete in, we can't afford to sit and wait a decade or two, in hopes of possibly winning federal dollars to fund many of these initiatives 100%. Throwing local money into the mix is a sure fire way to reduce the desired timeline.

[Ocklawaha]

Here are some of the numbers that shippers will be looking at when choosing a port. I've used a rounded vessel speed of 14 knots, though most vessels are capable of 20-30 knots, the average cruising speed is actually a bit less then 14. Consider too that the distance from San Francisco to the east coast will add at least 2,700 rail/highway miles to the shipment and these miles may or may not delay the shipment based on how fast the cargo is trans-loaded. These miles will also be at a premium price and could involve extensive drayage.

You can see from this list that JACKSONVILLE does indeed have an advantage over ports to our north. 

Port of loading: Hamburg, GERMANY
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 4175 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 12 days 10 hours

Port of loading: Hamburg, GERMANY
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 3819 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 11 days 9 hours

Port of loading: Hamburg, GERMANY
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 8323 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 24 days 19 hours

ADVANTAGE - BALTIMORE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Recife, BRASIL
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 3603 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 10 days 17 hours

Port of loading: Recife, BRASIL
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 3729 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 11 days 2 hours

Port of loading: Recife, BRASIL
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 6428 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 19 days 3 hours

ADVANTAGE - JACKSONVILLE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Buenaventura, COLOMBIA
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 1876 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 5 days 14 hours

Port of loading: Buenaventura, COLOMBIA
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 2290 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 6 days 20 hours

Port of loading: Buenaventura, COLOMBIA
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 3375 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 10 days 1 hours

ADVANTAGE - JACKSONVILLE

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Hong Kong, HONG KONG
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 10538 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 31 days 9 hours

Port of loading: Hong Kong, HONG KONG
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 10952 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 32 days 14 hours

Port of loading: Hong Kong, HONG KONG
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 6033 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 17 days 23 hours

ADVANTAGE - SAN FRANCISCO

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Darwin, AUSTRALIA
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 10635 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 31 days 16 hours

Port of loading: Darwin, AUSTRALIA
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 11049 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 32 days 21 hours

Port of loading: Darwin, AUSTRALIA
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 7069 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 21 days 1 hours

ADVANTAGE - SAN FRANCISCO

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Port Elizabeth, SOUTH AFRICA
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 7288 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 21 days 17 hours

Port of loading: Port Elizabeth, SOUTH AFRICA
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 7415 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 22 days 2 hours

Port of loading: Port Elizabeth, SOUTH AFRICA
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 10080 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 30 days 0 hours

ADVANTAGE - JACKSONVILLE

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Port of loading: Yokohama, JAPAN
Port of discharge: Jacksonville, US
Distance: 9204 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 27 days 9 hours

Port of loading: Yokohama, JAPAN
Port of discharge: Baltimore, US
Distance: 9617 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 28 days 15 hours

Port of loading: Yokohama, JAPAN
Port of discharge: San Francisco, US
Distance: 4530 nautical miles
Vessel speed: 14 knots
Time: 13 days 12 hours

ADVANTAGE - SAN FRANCISCO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ocean Distances from the Atlantic side of the Panama Canal.

BALTIMORE - 1904
NORFOLK - 1781
WILMINGTON - 1609
CHARLESTON - 1563
SAVANNAH - 1564
JACKSONVILLE - 1513
TAMPA - 1213
PENSACOLA - 1342
MOBILE - 1371
NEW ORLEANS - 1396
GALVESTON - 1403
CORPUS CHRISTI - 1549

PORT OF MIAMI SAVES 324 MILES (ICW) FROM THE JACKSONVILLE DISTANCES BUT ADDS 351 RAIL MILES.

[Ocklawaha]

Any word on the Zion - Keystone deal? Looks like Keystone is planning something big, and Keystone is big enough to make it happen. Meanwhile I understand the JPA has started the process of condemning 185 acres of ZION property NW of the Blount Island Terminal. I suspect part of this is for the new Cruise Terminal (which will do absolutely NOTHING for downtown if they locate it on the north side of the St. Johns and north of the Trout River).

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=12622.0

[thelakelander]

Here are some of the numbers that shippers will be looking at when choosing a port. I've used a rounded vessel speed of 14 knots, though most vessels are capable of 20-30 knots, the average cruising speed is actually a bit less then 14. Consider too that the distance from San Francisco to the east coast will add at least 2,700 rail/highway miles to the shipment and these miles may or may not delay the shipment based on how fast the cargo is trans-loaded. These miles will also be at a premium price and could involve extensive drayage.

You can see from this list that JACKSONVILLE does indeed have an advantage over ports to our north.

The list is nice but it doesn't dive into the intangibles that truly determine the validity of shipping into one port verses another.  For example, you mention shipping products into Miami would mean you'd have to get them on rail through Jacksonville to get out of the state.  What if the product being shipped isn't bound for out of state?  Also, in certain cases it makes sense to ship by rail from the West or Gulf Coast to access the Midwest.  When it comes to Jax, Savannah, Charleston and Norfolk, what role does having a variety of rail carriers play?  Furthermore, does incentives play a role in attracting businesses to use one port over another?  If so, how do we compare with some of our peers in this arena?

[Ocklawaha]

It now appears that improved dockside rail and the ITF are part of the plan at JAXPORT.

You can see from this list that JACKSONVILLE does indeed have an advantage over ports to our north.

The list is nice but it doesn't dive into the intangibles that truly determine the validity of shipping into one port verses another.  For example, you mention shipping products into Miami would mean you'd have to get them on rail through Jacksonville to get out of the state.  What if the product being shipped isn't bound for out of state?

Good point Lake, and Florida is certainly an attractor state for most chemicals, oil, foods and manufactured goods. This fact has kept the railroads which serve Florida in high cotton when other carriers were in their death throes. There is plenty of room for Jaxport to continue to carve out a niche in the localized markets, even if we don't dominate them.

Also, in certain cases it makes sense to ship by rail from the West or Gulf Coast to access the Midwest.

Certainly, especially from much of the Orient when speed is money, when it's not, the east coast becomes more attractive due to cost difference of ship/long haul truck, or ship/long haul rail compared to ship/local truck or ship/local rail.

When it comes to Jax, Savannah, Charleston and Norfolk, what role does having a variety of rail carriers play?

This directly effects not only the price of the rail shipments (competition) but has a huge effect on the price of truck-load shipments. In a study called "Assessing Economic Impacts Of Railroad Abandonments On Rural Communities," states "Truck rates are generally not competitive with rail in the absence of rail access." Compared to Savannah or Charleston, Jacksonville is uniquely situated on the railroad map with a selection of carriers and mainlines that radiate to virtually every major market east of the Mississippi. Norfolk, Baltimore and points north have some long torturous grades between them and the industrial heartland.

Furthermore, does incentives play a role in attracting businesses to use one port over another?  If so, how do we compare with some of our peers in this arena?

Incentives play an important role, but just how we stack up to our peers will require more research and perhaps a Q and A with our port director.

[thelakelander]

Compared to Savannah or Charleston, Jacksonville is uniquely situated on the railroad map with a selection of carriers and mainlines that radiate to virtually every major market east of the Mississippi. Norfolk, Baltimore and points north have some long torturous grades between them and the industrial heartland.

Where JAXPORT has targeted its expansion plans, CSX is the only rail carrier.  If we don't find a way to get multiple rail carriers into these new terminals, what's the negative impact, in terms of competing with the other ports?

[Ocklawaha]

Huge, and it's only going to get worse once the entire international shipping community understands the '3 railroads' mentioned in the Jaxport literature actually means one railroad offering a 2-5 day connection to the other 2 or you better get ready for substantial drayage.