Final 40 miles to Orlando a problem for FEC train project?

[thelakelander]

The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that FEC's private passenger rail project now has a few obstacles to overcome:



1. City of Cocoa wants a station but is continuing to be rebuffed by FECI.

2. The Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) doesn't want a Cocoa station because it fears less people will drive on their toll road if the train were an option.  FEC wants OOCEA's right-of-way for free to get to Orlando, so I assume Cocoa loses.

3. Negotiations with Orlando International Airport are moving slower than originally envisioned.

OIA is being asked to help pay for a garage and depot for the train that would cost more than $210 million. About 80 percent of that would be for a 3,500-space garage. But who pays for what part of that bill has not been determined.

The airport also would be responsible for building a mile-long elevated monorail to serve the station at a cost of $181.4 million. Roads and other infrastructure costs of about $78 million would fall to OIA, too.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-31/news/os-train-orlando-miami-20120831_1_passenger-train-cocoa-orlando-international-airport

[thelakelander]

From the expressway authority:

"A depot in Cocoa could end up costing the expressway money because it could siphon toll-paying motorists off the road and onto the train, said agency director Max Crumit. That likely would be a deal breaker between the authority and the train, he said."

So, I guess Florida does know that people will use rail but that would mean less cars on the road.  However, less cars on the road means less money on the road, which means "no deal."  With the first phase of the Outer Beltway under construction, I wonder if there could be some opposition to commuter rail into Clay County when its deemed it could potentially siphon drivers off the beltway, which would put a huge dent in toll revenue projections.

[Tacachale]

I think we're likely to see this whenever the state has to be involved in some way in a rail project. They'll see it as a threat to their commitment to precious car travel.

[jcjohnpaint]

Then why doesn't the train just run locally (within Jacksonville) instead of being regional? 

[thelakelander]

Because an Orlando to Miami run would attract significantly higher ridership and revenue.

[urbaknight]

Well, guess the highway Nazis win again! It was a great idea though. No additional passenger rain for Florida!

[carpnter]

That is one of the biggest problems with these trains, every town it goes through wants it to stop there.  Cocoa isn't big enough to warrant a stop.  If there is a stop in that area it needs to be further south in Melbourne/Palm Bay, not Cocoa. 

[Ocklawaha]

So to those who still don't think streetcar or commuter rail would be wildly popular in Jacksonville you have to ask yourself a question:

FDOT  have said that our $19 million dollar BUS RAPID TRANSIT project will attract as many 'choice riders,' (meaning those that own their own transportation) as rail.

JTA said, Bus Rapid Transit is the 'way to rail' because it is so popular in cities that have it.

CUTR (Florida's transportation institute at USF) Have said rail isn't necessary and that in fact, buses can attract more riders for less money.

NBRTI (National Bus Rapid Transit Institute) says, BRT is 'just like rail only cheaper.'

...and

....wait for it


The Orlando Expressway Authority says, 'trains will hurt the turnpikes taking cars and buses (implied) off the road.' So I'm just a bit confused, why are we seeing this ecological and rapid means of transportation in a different light when someone in Orlando or USF suddenly decides:

"TRAINS ARE MORE POPULAR THEN CARS OR BUSES"

Next Question?
'

[peestandingup]

From the expressway authority:

"A depot in Cocoa could end up costing the expressway money because it could siphon toll-paying motorists off the road and onto the train, said agency director Max Crumit. That likely would be a deal breaker between the authority and the train, he said."

So, I guess Florida does know that people will use rail but that would mean less cars on the road.  However, less cars on the road means less money on the road, which means "no deal."  With the first phase of the Outer Beltway under construction, I wonder if there could be some opposition to commuter rail into Clay County when its deemed it could potentially siphon drivers off the beltway, which would put a huge dent in toll revenue projections.

And this is really the underlying reason why rail projects (and good public transit in general) gets the shaft in most places, but FL especially. Highways & sprawl are big business here. As I said in another thread, its not about sound investments, giving people options & making travel safer, but continuing the rackets & keeping everyone chained to that system so they're forced to play into that whole game. Anyone who doesn't realize this simply isn't thinking deeply enough about it or are playing some kind of party politics.

As a side note, that's really when you know the good states from the bad states. The ones who actually invest in their people & communities, truly making them better with people's best interests in mind are getting harder to find. They're out there, just not a lot of them. But the dirt bags down here seem like they want none of that, while many of them repeating the tea bagger mantras of being "conservative", but only on things their masters hand pick themselves as being so.

But the joke will eventually be on them because those kinds of plans are never sustainable. They always bust, but sadly usually after a few of them get rich & get what they wanted out of it, leaving everyone else in the dirt.

[spuwho]

Hey Pee,

When it comes to highway dollars and feeding at the trough, there are no political barriers.

In Dem dominated states its used as a tool to keep the unions fed. In Repub states it used as a tool to keep their donors fed. Either way, when lots of money is involved, ones political affiliation usually is not a barrier to getting access.

[spuwho]

From the expressway authority:

"A depot in Cocoa could end up costing the expressway money because it could siphon toll-paying motorists off the road and onto the train, said agency director Max Crumit. That likely would be a deal breaker between the authority and the train, he said."

So, I guess Florida does know that people will use rail but that would mean less cars on the road.  However, less cars on the road means less money on the road, which means "no deal."  With the first phase of the Outer Beltway under construction, I wonder if there could be some opposition to commuter rail into Clay County when its deemed it could potentially siphon drivers off the beltway, which would put a huge dent in toll revenue projections.

Hey Lake,

Since the 40 miles weren't going to be ready at the beginning anyway, wasn't AAF going to bus the gap until it was?

That would require some sort of facility in Cocoa to transfer the passengers. That would also require the buses to pay a toll to use the road.

I think they will work out a compromise using a tourism revenue channel, like a half a percent tax on rental cars to make up the difference.

[peestandingup]

Hey Pee,

When it comes to highway dollars and feeding at the trough, there are no political barriers.

In Dem dominated states its used as a tool to keep the unions fed. In Repub states it used as a tool to keep their donors fed. Either way, when lots of money is involved, ones political affiliation usually is not a barrier to getting access.

Sure. I never said it wasn't. The mask may be different in other states or towns, but the wearer is usually the same underneath & driven by the same motivations. Money, maximizing profits & special interests.

[Gators312]

Hey Pee,

When it comes to highway dollars and feeding at the trough, there are no political barriers.

In Dem dominated states its used as a tool to keep the unions fed. In Repub states it used as a tool to keep their donors fed. Either way, when lots of money is involved, ones political affiliation usually is not a barrier to getting access.

Feeding the Unions who are their donors.....

[Nightman_Cometh]

A stop in cocoa makes plenty sense.  People from all over the country fly into Orlando, then rent a car and drive to Cocoa/Cape Canaveral to get on cruise ships at the port.

[Ocklawaha]

Ultimately, Cocoa WILL have a station, in fact many of our coastal cities will eventually have stations. For HrSR (higher speed rail) to be truly effective and achieve any definition of a 'system', station's will be established where ever towns and their populace are insistent on having it.

In the case of a railroad running between Orlando - West Palm Beach - Fort Lauderdale - Miami

Assuming a schedule from 5 am until midnight, every hour 16 -18 trains each way daily

Adding even 4 stops shouldn't effect time or ridership in anything but positive ways. The key is not to over serve the smaller markets and find the right combination of stations for each train to reach. For example a train stopping at Cocoa - West Palm - Fort Lauderdale - Miami, might have a leading or following train stopping at Melbourne - West Palm - Fort Lauderdale - Miami, and yet another stopping at Fort Pierce - West Palm - Fort Lauderdale - Miami.  By working the combinations just right, every city could be connected with every other city, but every train needn't stop in every city.