Downtown retail surge brings more investors

[ChriswUfGator]

he's just trying to put digs on on certain posters (in this case, me)....but considering all of the new small busisnesses that have opened at the Landing and other downtown spots lately, it has very little value.

What new small businesses? How about a list?

[simms3]

Is there a retail surge?  Can someone put together a list of retailers in general downtown, as well as their websites.  Add to that restaurants that don't include fast food or fast casual chains.  Add to that galleries.

My thoughts and observations are that generally:

1) In Sunbelt CBDs residents and businesses come first, maybe some students.

2) Then come some support businesses like a pharmacy, an office supply store, some coffee shops, an urban grocer, some breakfast places, maybe a college book store that can serve the community, too.

3) Then as more residents come and downtown becomes more active and more on people's radar, a SLEW of restaurants open up.  I feel like restaurants always precede retail.  Add bars and clubs to this, as well.

4) Then finally with more residents and tourists the only missing ingredient is retail, but it's hard for people to make a transition from shopping in the burbs/neighborhoods to shopping downtown again.  No city in the sunbelt really has "shopping" in a CBD yet.


Galleries follow 2 things it seems: the money (they need the wealthy to come in and buy art) and the hip art oriented areas, whether it's downtown or not.

[ChriswUfGator]

Simms, hold off a brief moment and let him answer the question. These claims of downtown's retail meccadom by Tufsu often turn out to be hilarious. The last time we got into a debate over how downtown had scores of thriving restaurants, we asked him to back it up, and he posted a list that included the Winn Dixie and a convenience store as 'dining options.'

We don't want to interrupt the fun...

[urbanlibertarian]

You couldn't call it a surge but 2 7elevens, dollar store, McDonalds are positive signs.  Businesses that might consider SJTC won't be opening DT anytime soon.

[simms3]

^^^Meh, those don't mean anything.  7 Elevens are convenient stores that set up anywhere and everywhere they can.  Convenient stores are useful, but they are like weeds and can survive literally anywhere.

McDonald's does not serve your typical downtown office worker or your typical downtown resident.  I won't comment on who might be a typical customer of a McDonalds (is it standalone with a drive through or at the base of a building?).

Dollar store - again it's not like your downtown office workers and residents will be using it.  No comment there either.

Stephen is right - it's pretty amazing, perhaps a unique fact, but downtown Jacksonville does not have a Starbucks.  Starbucks is the convenient store of coffee shops...it can survive anywhere with ok fundamentals.  Not that I'm a huge Starbucks fan, but it's amazing there isn't one in DT Jax and I think it speaks volumes to that submarket.

[simms3]

^^^Those Google searches are highly inaccurate, too.  I just did a similar search "Starbuck Downtown Atlanta" and only half of the Starbucks showed up.  There are 6 between DT and Midtown (4 in Midtown alone, 2 within 2 blocks of me and 2 more both 8-9 blocks down).

Of course there are 2 on Georgia Tech's campus - that helps (but one is in Tech Square in the heart of Midtown on 5th).  1 is in a mixed-use development along 14th called Colony Square (accessible from street).  1 is standalone with outdoor seating along 14th.  1 is on Peachtree, also with outdoor seating and is open and packed really late each night (it serves as its own activity center on that corner).  I don't live DT so I don't know the dynamics of those, but every Starbucks in Midtown has outdoor seating, putting people on the sidewalks 7 days a week, and nearly 24 hours a day in the case of one.

The bulk of independent shops are in surrounding neighborhoods leaving the corporate places like Starbucks to be DT/MT where they pay $40-$50++ rent.

In DT Nashville there is Dunn Bros, Portland Brew, Ugly Muggs, Frothy Monkey, and other independent coffee shops in addition to a couple of Starbucks.  Unfortunately most are not open past 7 or 8, but Nashville is getting there.

If there are no Starbucks in DT Jax, where do people get their coffee?  Are there some good independent shops?

[tufsu1]

Here's a partial list.....of just those shops that have opened in recent months at the Landing

Lilie's Boutique
Ocean Water Bath + Gifts
River City Gourmet
Sub Culture
Cherish Couture
Pink Cupcake
AJ Reese
Karma Bazma
Aly Cat

And from what I understand, there's a 10th new shop opening very soon!

[fsujax]

Wait a minute TUFSU there is nothing Downtown and no one wants to go there. I guess all those little shops I have seen opening at the Landing are imaginery. There is nothing there. Move on to the town center! And who the hell needs Starbucks for coffee? Chamblins is just fine.

[tufsu1]

And there are now nearly 20 night spots in downtown (including dining establishments)....many of them are new and small businesses

[vicupstate]

Considering the markup on Starbucks coffee and free rent, it's pretty amazing they didn't even stay three years at 11 E.

No city in the sunbelt really has "shopping" in a CBD yet

While true for the most part, Charleston SC is a exception. 

[tufsu1]

Considering the markup on Starbucks coffee and free rent, it's pretty amazing they didn't even stay three years at 11 E.

it had more to do with the corporate downsizing of a few years ago (600 stores if I remember correctly) than the local store itself.

now the same can't be said about the Landing store which closed last year

[simms3]

^^^Like any downsizing company they shuttered poor performing locations.  Starbucks has thousands of locations it kept, and it kept the strongest.  The two in downtown Jacksonville obviously were in the bottom 600ish or so in terms of profit.  I doubt rent was exorbitantly high (in fact it appears it was % rent at 11 East), so volume must have been very low at both locations.

That's simply a reflection of downtown if the city's most concentrated area of employment and residents within walking distance can't support the world's most popular coffee shop.  That's what it boils down to, so stores at the Landing or not I agree with Stephen that there are fundamental problems downtown that need to be corrected.

[simms3]

And wasn't there a signage effort for the Starbucks at 11 E?  I remember it had signage, but I seem to vaguely remember they had to go through Herculean efforts to get it and it was discussed on this board...

[tufsu1]

Actually Starbucks primarily closed stores that had been open less than 2 years

[simms3]

^^^You are correct.  They closed stores that they opened in a time of massive risky expansion, so they were still underperforming stores.  I don't think the Starbucks in the Landing was a young store, but it still ended up closing last year.

Still, as Stephen reports Starbucks wasn't paying anything to be at 11 East and it probably did not put a lot of money into the buildout, so it sounds as if the sales volume wasn't even enough to cover operating expenditures.

Just thinking logic here - Starbucks essentially had to buy out remaining term for the 600 stores it closed, so it had to weigh which stores it should close by comparing cost to close the store and cost to keep it open.  In the case of 11 East it sounds like it was cost to close = $0, CF if keeping it open = -$x.