A battered wife gets charged for standing up for herself?

[officerk]

I looked her up on DOCweb.. she has served no prison term.. the fact that she has gone through the DUI school 4x means that she has had a form of treatment and the school (which includes AA requirements) is often given in lieu of lengthy incarceration.. as far as death penalty, no, DUI is not a capital crime it does not warrant a death sentence however to say that she should just have her vehicle taken away from her is certainly not a good enough punishment.  Prison term is certainly called for at this juncture, probably should have been 2 or 3 DUIs ago... To take someone's vehicle and driver's license from them does not prevent them from driving, it only prevents them from driving legally.. then we run into a conundrum as what to do with the violator? fine them? they don't pay the fine. Fine them again? they still don't pay the fine. eventually there would have to be a bench warrant and now we have yet another person incarcerated which seems to be your hot button... you have issue with people being incarcerated for non-violent crimes.. if their is no fear of punishment for a violation why would anyone have any inclination to follow a law? 

I think that someone who is a habitual offender definitely warrants a punishment more than a slap on the hand and stern warning not to do something again.  To take this woman's car & away would be exactly that.  She deserves a prison term of some length.  And in prison she will receive a very comprehensive alcohol treatment program. 

[ChriswUfGator]

I looked her up on DOCweb.. she has served no prison term.. the fact that she has gone through the DUI school 4x means that she has had a form of treatment and the school (which includes AA requirements) is often given in lieu of lengthy incarceration.. as far as death penalty, no, DUI is not a capital crime it does not warrant a death sentence however to say that she should just have her vehicle taken away from her is certainly not a good enough punishment.  Prison term is certainly called for at this juncture, probably should have been 2 or 3 DUIs ago... To take someone's vehicle and driver's license from them does not prevent them from driving, it only prevents them from driving legally.. then we run into a conundrum as what to do with the violator? fine them? they don't pay the fine. Fine them again? they still don't pay the fine. eventually there would have to be a bench warrant and now we have yet another person incarcerated which seems to be your hot button... you have issue with people being incarcerated for non-violent crimes.. if their is no fear of punishment for a violation why would anyone have any inclination to follow a law? 

I think that someone who is a habitual offender definitely warrants a punishment more than a slap on the hand and stern warning not to do something again.  To take this woman's car & away would be exactly that.  She deserves a prison term of some length.  And in prison she will receive a very comprehensive alcohol treatment program.

In your jump to that conclusion, you should have read the article a bit more carefully. That story is from a different county, she wouldn't show up on DOCweb. Why don't you contact the Saint Johns County Clerk and request copies of the judgments rather than jumping to conclusions? FYI, repetitive DUI's already carry mandatory minimum jail terms, so your argument is ill-advised, since she's facing her 5th DUI, I think that leaves very little question as to how well your approach has worked. Since you brought this up as an example.

[officerk]

no. I am correct.. DOCweb is for the State of Florida Prison system.. I think the issue here is that you are not familiar with the difference between a Prison term and a Jail term.  I stated that she has served no Prison term, not that she has served no Jail time... And I know and mean exactly what I said and what I meant - at this juncture PRISON time is called for - not JAIL time.  At this point she has hopefully by law crossed the line to felony DUI habitual offender charges and therefore will get PRISON time and not misdemeanor DUI charges as have apparently previously been the case as she has only been in the County system and not the State system.

Now you have side stepped my question yet again.... AND side stepped a 2nd question...

[ChriswUfGator]

No, you aren't correct...

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/

That's the state DC's inmate tracking system, not DOCweb, which is here;

http://inmatesearch.jaxsheriff.org/jsodocwebreports/(S(ddrbsc55vtlnqrq2ujdlru45))/Default.aspx

Regardless, both are regularly inaccurate, and if you care this much, why don't you call the clerk and get copies of the judgments rather than making assumptions?

And I'm not ducking any questions, I've pointed out several times that your comparisons are bogus and apples to oranges. If you choose not to listen, that's your business. You seem to be confusing the situation, I haven't ducked your questions, I just disagree with you.

[officerk]

I apologize DOCweb is a term that is used to refer to http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ by those of us that routinely access that website. DOC mean Department of Corrections, as in State of Florida Department of Corrections. It is not a free world term and that was my error. 

She is not listed as a former State inmate which means that she has never served a Prison term. Clearly you are not going to understand what I am saying as you are refusing to. This was no jump to "conclusion" as I searched "Search All Corrections Offender Databases" and with her name search there are no matches with age and name.  There are multiple data bases : Inmate Population Search Results; Inmate Release Search Results; Supervised Population Search Results; Absconder/Fugitive Search Results. We have her name and age. It does not take long to search each of these and figure out that she has not been on the STATE DOC guest list.... Again - I have said nothing about her never having been a guest of the Counties. We KNOW she has been a guest of the county in some fashion, she has 5 (now 6) DUI arrests.

the website to which you are referring to:
http://inmatesearch.jaxsheriff.org/jsodocwebreports/(S(ddrbsc55vtlnqrq2ujdlru45))/Default.
is the JSO jail inmate tracker.... which would be JAIL, not PRISON... these are completely different agencies/systems. Jails house pre-sentencing, trial and inmates that have been sentenced for crimes that are misdemeanors and inmates with sentences typically with individual sentences of less than 1 year and 1 day.  Prisons house felons with sentences with individual sentences more 1 year and 1 day or more.

However, If you do not know, and refuse to accept the difference between Prison and Jail - you are right we are at an impass.

[ChriswUfGator]

I apologize DOCweb is a term that is used to refer to http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ by those of us that routinely access that website. DOC mean Department of Corrections, as in State of Florida Department of Corrections. It is not a free world term and that was my error. 

She is not listed as a former State inmate which means that she has never served a Prison term. Clearly you are not going to understand what I am saying as you are refusing to. This was no jump to "conclusion" as I searched "Search All Corrections Offender Databases" and with her name search there are no matches with age and name.  There are multiple data bases : Inmate Population Search Results; Inmate Release Search Results; Supervised Population Search Results; Absconder/Fugitive Search Results. We have her name and age. It does not take long to search each of these and figure out that she has not been on the STATE DOC guest list.... Again - I have said nothing about her never having been a guest of the Counties. We KNOW she has been a guest of the county in some fashion, she has 5 (now 6) DUI arrests.

the website to which you are referring to:
http://inmatesearch.jaxsheriff.org/jsodocwebreports/(S(ddrbsc55vtlnqrq2ujdlru45))/Default.
is the JSO jail inmate tracker.... which would be JAIL, not PRISON... these are completely different agencies/systems. Jails house pre-sentencing, trial and inmates that have been sentenced for crimes that are misdemeanors and inmates with sentences typically with individual sentences of less than 1 year and 1 day.  Prisons house felons with sentences with individual sentences more 1 year and 1 day or more.

However, If you do not know, and refuse to accept the difference between Prison and Jail - you are right we are at an impass.

That's funny, I routinely access both, and DOCweb = county, several counties use that software platform, and DC = State. Two totally different websites, which you'll note from the hyperlinks are titled exactly as I've described. Obviously I am aware of the difference, since I pointed out to you that you were confusing the two. Saying that's a term you use to describe one despite its name is like saying "chevy is a term I use to refer to a ford...". Lol

And I know the difference between prison and jail, the confusion was yours, talking about DOCweb which is the system for the Duval County Jail. Pardon me for thinking that was what you were referring to. But none of that changes the fact that by DUI numbers 3 and 4, she almost certainly served time, where mandatory minimums are involved. As an example, a fourth DUI carries a statutory mandatory minimum of 12 months in state prison, and this woman is on her 5th already. So for what has got to be the sixth time I've told you this, if you actually want to know instead of simply guessing, then call the clerks and get copies of the judgments.

Until then, you're just stating your guess and calling it a fact, based on her not being listed on two websites that are often inaccurate and that she may not have been listed on anyway. It's not my fault that you didn't know the difference between the names of the websites which you brought up yourself, I even tried to point it out to you and your response was typical: "no I'm correct." Lol, I even gave you the chance to correct yourself before I had to do it for you.

Once more, if you want to continue this debate, quit stating your opinions as fact, and get copies of the judgments showing what her sentences were for her 4 prior DUIs, and then you'll either be right or you won't. It would be the 3rd and 4th that she'd have been incarcerated for, and the 4th would have been prison not jail. But at least then we'll know. Quit passing your opinion off as fact and get copies of the judgments. Then we'll know one way or the other.

If you wish to get back to my actual point, it's that the woman has by DUI #4 already served prison time and it clearly did not resolve the problem. Draconian sentences do nothing to resolve addiction problems, the whole approach is not effective. There is a wealth of research on this topic of you really have any interest in it.

[DDC]

If you wish to get back to my actual point, it's that the woman has by DUI #4 already served prison time and it clearly did not resolve the problem. Draconian sentences do nothing to resolve addiction problems, the whole approach is not effective. There is a wealth of research on this topic of you really have any interest in it.

You are correct, "Draconian sentences do nothing to resolve addiction problems". However, in a case such as this, where the offender obviously refuses, or is unable to accept that they need help, a draconian sentence will keep them from behind the wheel of a car. Problem solved until the sentence is served and they are out to re-offend. Then we get to do it all over again.

[officerk]

Please allow me to present some credentials. I happen to work for the State of FL Department of Corrections.
Therefore, I know that the website that I referred as the State DOC website is the one I was meaning when I said she has never been a guest of the State of FL.  I did do the research WITHIN the STATE system... not the County - I made no Guesses with regards to her State Prison Time... she has served none.  Far as your claim that this system contains errors.. not in my experience... and I have been with the Department for a few years... the "officer" in my nom de plume is not just wishful thinking, I earned it.  Now if we could move away from that as it is actually moot.  You and I are apparently unstoppable force and immovable object w/regards to the above.

now the original question that I wanted you to answer before the back and forth on this began, which I would honestly like to have your HONEST answer on:

the only and proper punishment that she should receive is that her vehicle and license be taken away from her?

and the follow up question which I have a curiosity on:

To take someone's vehicle and driver's license from them does not prevent them from driving, it only prevents them from driving legally.. then we run into a conundrum as what to do with the violator? fine them? they don't pay the fine. Fine them again? they still don't pay the fine. eventually there would have to be a bench warrant and now we have yet another person incarcerated which seems to be your hot button... you have issue with people being incarcerated for non-violent crimes.. if their is no fear of punishment for a violation why would anyone have any inclination to follow a law? 

I ask these questions as I do really want to know how you would handle these situations to fix the problem if it were your place to fix them to ensure that these problems were in fact fixed and not repeated EVER.  As I do agree that our institutions (both state and county) are getting filled with people who could have possibly been handled differently and I would like to hear your opinion.  Perhaps had this woman (Theresa Long) been punished differently she would not be in the situation she is now.

[officerk]

and the State Prison System does have Alcohol Addiction classes that during her "draconian" prison term she would take advantage of as a part of the Re-Entry program which has had significant success within this state..

[officerk]

Please allow me to present some credentials. I happen to work for the State of FL Department of Corrections.
Therefore, I know that the website that I referred as the State DOC website is the one I was meaning when I said she has never been a guest of the State of FL.  I did do the research WITHIN the STATE system... not the County - I made no Guesses with regards to her State Prison Time... she has served none.  Far as your claim that this system contains errors.. not in my experience... and I have been with the Department for a few years... the "officer" in my nom de plume is not just wishful thinking, I earned it.  Now if we could move away from that as it is actually moot.  You and I are apparently unstoppable force and immovable object w/regards to the above.

now the original question that I wanted you to answer before the back and forth on this began, which I would honestly like to have your HONEST answer on:

the only and proper punishment that she should receive is that her vehicle and license be taken away from her?

and the follow up question which I have a curiosity on:

To take someone's vehicle and driver's license from them does not prevent them from driving, it only prevents them from driving legally.. then we run into a conundrum as what to do with the violator? fine them? they don't pay the fine. Fine them again? they still don't pay the fine. eventually there would have to be a bench warrant and now we have yet another person incarcerated which seems to be your hot button... you have issue with people being incarcerated for non-violent crimes.. if their is no fear of punishment for a violation why would anyone have any inclination to follow a law? 

I ask these questions as I do really want to know how you would handle these situations to fix the problem if it were your place to fix them to ensure that these problems were in fact fixed and not repeated EVER.  As I do agree that our institutions (both state and county) are getting filled with people who could have possibly been handled differently and I would like to hear your opinion.  Perhaps had this woman (Theresa Long) been punished differently she would not be in the situation she is now.

yeah.  about that.

Chris is a very competent attorney, Officer K.

That he may be... I never said he was an incompetent anything...

[ChriswUfGator]

Well since Stephen already outed me, I did find the lecture on how I don't understand DUIs or the difference between prison and jail, uh, rather amusing. I'm defending two of these as we speak, a DUI second offense and a DUI manslaughter. At the end of the day I think what we've got is a disagreement on whether harsh sentences have much effect especially on addiction-related crimes, which is a topic about which reasonable minds certainly can (and often do) disagree.

My main objection is that you're not providing any documentation, you're just stating your opinion as fact, and claiming that she didn't serve time when you don't actually know whether she did or not. You evidently have no interest in getting the presentencing reports or looking at the actual judgments, and those inmate websites aren't any help since we don't even know whether all 5 of the offenses occurred in Florida, or whether she served time in state prison in another state, or whether she had served time in county lookups where the offenses occurred (which is hardly pleasant and still counts). You just checked one website and made a blanket declaration. It's far more likely in my experience that she probably has, but that throwing the book at her did no good when her underlying addiction remained untreated.

[officerk]

I will again state that I made no assumption that she did NO time at all... only (and not an assumption) that she did no State Prison time in Florida (I searched her in the State website, she is not there).. BUT you are correct, I did the research of her Prison time was in the State of FL, I did not search any other state prison data bases... I did infer that that the DUIs were in FL and you are correct this inference could have been incorrect... BUT again I would really like to get back to the questions that I would really like to get answers to as we have both laid our credentials out there.. You know what you are talking about and I know what I am talking about, now - fabulous...  could you answer the questions? As an Attorney there is a different spin on this I am sure - but providing a spectacular defense for your clients is fabulous however the safety of the general populous and hopefully a determent of repeating crimes is ideal too... though repeat business does keep the revenue flowing..

So if you could answer the questions... I would really like your answers - I do not ask questions that I don't really want to hear the answers to.....
    To take someone's vehicle and driver's license from them does not prevent them from driving, it only prevents them from driving legally.. then we run into a conundrum as what to do with the violator? fine them? they don't pay the fine. Fine them again? they still don't pay the fine. eventually there would have to be a bench warrant and now we have yet another person incarcerated which seems to be your hot button... you have issue with people being incarcerated for non-violent crimes.. if their is no fear of punishment for a violation why would anyone have any inclination to follow a law? 

[ChriswUfGator]

Except that's not what you said...

I looked her up on DOCweb.. she has served no prison term..

I appreciate all of the extra qualifying language you're now adding in an attempt to be right after-the-fact, but unfortunately your words are still there in black and white even when they're no longer convenient. That's the thing about message boards, I'm afraid. You said she's served no prison term at all, your words not mine, and as I've been pointing out the whole time, you have no way to know whether that is true or not, and that statement is very likely inaccurate.

[NotNow]

But the point remains, as far as DUI goes, that often the multiple offender just continues to drive illegally.  Jail and/or prison at least insures, as pointed out by a previous poster, that the offender does not endanger the public. 

We can take away their DL and  even sieze their car in extreme situations, but we can't (and we shouldn't be able to) keep them from aquiring such property in the future.

Ock, is there really a death penalty for first offense DUI in El Salvadore?

[officerk]

Chris: and the bottom line is that you are not going to answer my questions. You would rather banter with me on whether she has or has not served prison time in Florida (a records system which I do have extensive access to) or another state (a system of which we have established that I do not have access) than give any kind alternative solution to the problem which was why I really did start this inquiry not to but heads with you...