Jax. Business Journal - Shameful!

[ben says]

Essentially: If you build it, they will come.

End of story

[tufsu1]

gee ben...you think they didn't say the same thing about the Landing 25 years ago?

never mind...I'll just ignore the MILLIONS of people that visit downtown every year....and then agree that there's nothing there to market....and if, like the editorial implies, Intuition Ale Works moved there, everything would be grand!

btw, Ron...I'm not saying I agree with the marketing effort....just that I vehemently disagree with the JBJ assertion that there is nothing downtown worth marketing.

[thelakelander]

The places that want to be downtown can't even get the city's attention.....

Intuition Ale Works is still looking for a second location

Intuition Ale Works isn’t getting any closer to finding a spot downtown, owner Ben Davis said.

A couple of weeks ago, a site plan surfaced for Intuition at the Shipyards, but Davis said that was really just an example of what he was looking for. Besides, he said, the city doesn’t appear interested in breaking up that land into smaller parcels.

So the Shipyards are out, he said, and he’s still looking for a building with high ceilings, truck access in and out on two or three acres.

What Davis needs is more room to brew more beer for distribution. That’s kegs for bars and cans for stores.

He’s said he’d like it to be downtown so he could include a taproom like he’s got on King Street.

“The other option,” he said, “is building a purely brewing operation and do all the canning and kegging there. Maybe on the Westside or up near the airport.”

Time, he said, is getting critical.

“We have get more beer into cans and kegs, that’s the issue.”

By the way, Intuition is donating $2 from every glass sold of Truck Stop Stout to the Alysha Miller Harris Baby Fund. Ben Harris was killed in an exploding keg accident at Red Hook Brewery in April and the fund goes to his wife and unborn child.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/428360/roger-bull/2012-07-13/intuition-ale-works-still-looking-second-location

[Bativac]

gee ben...you think they didn't say the same thing about the Landing 25 years ago?

never mind...I'll just ignore the MILLIONS of people that visit downtown every year....and then agree that there's nothing there to market....and if, like the editorial implies, Intuition Ale Works moved there, everything would be grand!

btw, Ron...I'm not saying I agree with the marketing effort....just that I vehemently disagree with the JBJ assertion that there is nothing downtown worth marketing.

Perhaps if there were wifi available all the way through downtown, little shops that could have stayed open if the parking enforcement hadn't been so egregious, and some incentives for a vibrant small business environment people would agree with you.

Anyplace, even an empty field can be busy for an event, TUFSU.

But if everything is usually closed, and there is nothing to do, then no amount of marketing can change that fact.

Perhaps this was something that should have been paid attention to a few years ago instead of pretending that Winn Dixie was a 'dining option'?

Overheard tonight as my wife and I were leaving the Landing:

"Man I've never seen this many people down here 'cept on New Years or the 4th!"
"Yeah I've lived here three or four years and nobody comes down here, ain't sh*t to do downtown."

And aside from the Landing, that guy wasn't far off the mark. I know the usual thing is to accuse anybody who says that of being wrong but the fact is, guys like him are all over town, and when they venture downtown after 5 PM, all there is to do is get plastered at the Landing while another cover band plays the same tired southern rock tunes.

This is Friday night and that's the best we got?

[simms3]

I don't particularly notice other cities "marketing" downtown.  They just find ways to make their CBDs work, and then the private sector takes over the marketing.

TIF has been a big part of the success story of a downtown Nashville neighborhood called Sobro (South of Broadway).

The joint effort of the city and a slew of big name developers has resulted in land sales of $150-$200/ft ($6.5MM-$8.5MM/acre).  The city has purchased land through eminent domain for the 1 million SF convention center, 800-room Omni Hotel, Country Music Hall of Fame expansion, and for the now famous Schermerhorn Symphony Center.

The private sector has boosted that momentum of very well thought out and planned public investment with large-scale private investment in the area in the form of new office, condos, apartments, warehouse expansions, retail, and hotels.  Furthermore, lots of the large public projects like the convention center, symphony and Country Music Hall of Fame expansion benefit from a ton of private funding/donations. 

The brokers and PR firms of these projects do all the "Sobro" marketing and they create the buzz.  The largest office development in that area was constructed for about $300/SF and commands rents between $30-$35 for the city's most prestigious law firms.  Condos are also selling for roughly $300/SF.  This happens because the development partnerships hire brokers and marketing firms that do a very good job of selling the concept of "Sobro".

Jacksonville agencies should work to put together creative financing incentives for new development.  The latest firm to move downtown (that MassMutual group) quoted the lower rents downtown as one reason for the move (and I bet it was a big reason).  That's why development downtown can't happen naturally - rents are too low.  The city needs to step in and inflate the feasibility for developers to come in.  Tax abatements on various scales and in various means has seemed to work in every city that has used them.

I think it's difficult for the city to be "fair" and reward some current CBD investors (and not all) with incentives to fill their buildings.  They made those investments with those inherent risks and vacancy already baked into the purchase price.  If downtown becomes desirable, the older buildings will always be more marketable for most tenants as hardly any tenants beside the most prestigious law firms and I-banks can afford true class A rents.

Create stipulations that are uniform over an area and sunset in some particular way and reward "new" development.  The developers will spend the money creating the buzz.  It also helps if the city appropriately invests, as well (i.e. parks, streetscapes, looser regulations on signage/outdoor seating, etc).

[RockStar]

gee ben...you think they didn't say the same thing about the Landing 25 years ago?

never mind...I'll just ignore the MILLIONS of people that visit downtown every year....and then agree that there's nothing there to market....and if, like the editorial implies, Intuition Ale Works moved there, everything would be grand!

btw, Ron...I'm not saying I agree with the marketing effort....just that I vehemently disagree with the JBJ assertion that there is nothing downtown worth marketing.

Perhaps if there were wifi available all the way through downtown, little shops that could have stayed open if the parking enforcement hadn't been so egregious, and some incentives for a vibrant small business environment people would agree with you.

Anyplace, even an empty field can be busy for an event, TUFSU.

But if everything is usually closed, and there is nothing to do, then no amount of marketing can change that fact.

Perhaps this was something that should have been paid attention to a few years ago instead of pretending that Winn Dixie was a 'dining option'?

Overheard tonight as my wife and I were leaving the Landing:

"Man I've never seen this many people down here 'cept on New Years or the 4th!"
"Yeah I've lived here three or four years and nobody comes down here, ain't sh*t to do downtown."

And aside from the Landing, that guy wasn't far off the mark. I know the usual thing is to accuse anybody who says that of being wrong but the fact is, guys like him are all over town, and when they venture downtown after 5 PM, all there is to do is get plastered at the Landing while another cover band plays the same tired southern rock tunes.

This is Friday night and that's the best we got?

Seriously? You're friggin' clueless. 1904, Burro Bar, Phoenix Taproom, DG, LIT, Underbelly, Mark's, Dive Bar, TSI, Northstar. Plenty of places to get plastered.

And I'm probably leaving someone out. You want more? Move to NYC. This isn't NYC.

[AshleyLauren]

I think Bativac's point was not that he thinks the only thing to do downtown after 5 is drink at the Landing but the only thing to do downtown at all is drink. And sadly, that is true. There should be other things to do than drink/get plastered.


What are some bars, restaurants, clothing stores, etc that Jacksonville does not have anywhere in the entire city that other major cities have?? Things that attract many demographics not just the drinkers.

For example, Macy's or H&M (even though the Avenues is getting one). Macy's would bring women downtown in droves.

[thelakelander]

Without first addressing several other factors, Downtown will never see a department store like Macy's open up shop.  Even SJTC is struggling to land additional anchors like Macy's.  Quite simply, the demographics for such a major retailer in downtown aren't there at this time.  We blew that when May-Cohens, Sears, Furchgott's, Levy-Wolf, JCPenney, and Ivey's pulled out in the 1980s.  However, even then, they all were struggling on their last legs of dealing with gradual demographic and economic changes in the downtown core and city since the 1950s.

It's not the talk people want to here and it's definitely not sexy, but if we want to see downtown return, it will have to do so organically and incrementally.  To get that process jump-started doesn't take much money or require marketing plans laced with cocaine, if the city modifies its restrictive policies to allow market rate private enterprise to blossom.

[thelakelander]

And I'm probably leaving someone out. You want more? Move to NYC. This isn't NYC.

Or let's find a way to get more vitality and life in downtown Jacksonville.  Cities like NYC, San Francisco, Chicago, etc. are on different level then a second tier mid-sized community like Jax.  However, with our weather, natural and historical assets, there's no reason we can't be just as vibrant as a place like San Antonio, TX, Columbus, OH, Savannah, GA or Greenville, SC? 

[Dog Walker]

Or downtown Asheville, NC.   That place went from a ghost town of closed textile businesses to a thriving, vibrant mix of clubs, restaurants, galleries, antique shops, offices, condos, apts, etc.  It took about twenty years of organic growth to do it, but there were pioneers and visionaries who made it happen.

[tufsu1]

I think Bativac's point was not that he thinks the only thing to do downtown after 5 is drink at the Landing but the only thing to do downtown at all is drink. And sadly, that is true. There should be other things to do than drink/get plastered.

so there aren't any places to eat, catch a show, read a book, enjoy live music, see a game, or just people watch?

[ChriswUfGator]

I think Bativac's point was not that he thinks the only thing to do downtown after 5 is drink at the Landing but the only thing to do downtown at all is drink. And sadly, that is true. There should be other things to do than drink/get plastered.

so there aren't any places to eat, catch a show, read a book, enjoy live music, see a game, or just people watch?

Yes, Tufsu, we know there's the Winn-Dixie...

[thelakelander]

I think Bativac's point was not that he thinks the only thing to do downtown after 5 is drink at the Landing but the only thing to do downtown at all is drink. And sadly, that is true. There should be other things to do than drink/get plastered.

so there aren't any places to eat, catch a show, read a book, enjoy live music, see a game, or just people watch?

I agree that there are things to do but there are things to do virtually anywhere.  I think people tend to compare it to downtowns of other communities that they have lived in or visited, which influences their opinion on the subject.  Quite frankly, when compared to most places, we're lacking despite the assets we're blessed with.  I say that as to not knock downtown but acknowledge reality and encourage people to work to improve and build upon what we do have.

[AshleyLauren]

Lake, I didn't mean to belittle the idea or pretend to know what it takes to wake up downtown. I wasn't around for half of those places in the 80s so I asked from a sincere position. Twenty years is a long time for something to organically grow as Dog Walker pointed out. Do you think that is the type of time span we are looking at??

[simms3]

I agree with Stephen.  I posted similarly a page or two up.  The marketing and the pop downtown will be by private developers and firms with invested financial interest in the success of downtown, but we can't get to that point until the city makes it easier to invest downtown.

There are literally dozens of incentivizing tax treatments tried by other cities that have worked.  This is in addition to common sense practices that the city hasn't figured out, despite merely having to copy nearly any other place in the country at this point.  The mobility plan was great, but for downtown specifically if the city can have an aggressive and well implemented/thought out TIF program or some sort of abatement program for downtown and certain inner core areas different from what is obviously not working right now, then I'm sure we'll see both more organic growth and more large-scale growth.

There are some firms out there that have the capacity to single-handedly turn around entire areas through creative development strategies, leveraging the right relationships, with experience and with massive marketing teams/efforts.  These firms through their opportunistic funds/placements need fewer ingredients to survive than institutional capital/placements, but these ingredients are usually the kind only provided by the city (regulatory and incentivizing ingredients).  These are the firms that will bring residents and businesses to the city, the kind of firms that will promote and foster organic growth.  It's like some retailers only want certain landlords (aka Simon), but these risk-taking firms are often the kinds of landlords a small business needs.  Even on Newbury where my firm has a ton of real estate a lot of the retailers and office users will pay a premium to be with us because we offer stability, support for their business, and we are reasonable to work with (as opposed to the small time locals/old feuding families that own a lot of the rest of the street).

I don't think the city has actively formed relationships with many developers, and those it has formed relationships with are either sketchy (Shipyards Part I) or have little to no experience (the city throws money at one-off developers or projects to failure every time, rather than having set program applicable equally to any developer that meets criteria).  The city has very few creative resident developers who can do something downtown (which is unfortunate because the city's peers all have very well known developers who are like local celebrities), but it can at least start talking to outside developers to see what it would take to provide conditions whereby they might consider coming in and building things.

I wonder if the city has done that.  Peter Rummell is chair of ULI this year, and I think it's ironic and sad that Jacksonville is never even mentioned in Urban Land publication whereas every other southeastern city is or has been included.  The ball is being dropped right and left by both the city and by private business leaders who can also play a role to make it happen.