The Premature Destruction of Downtown Jacksonville

[Steve_Lovett]

Another great park, that will not be maintained, activated and over ran by the homeless population is not we need Downtown right now.

I really hope that this isn't our greatest aspiration for the city. Why not demand more and better?

A continuing cycle of vacant/abandoned buildings, empty lots, and limited public access to the downtown waterfront isn't beneficial to progress either.

[fsujax]

We should demand more, I agree. But, look at what we have in office a mayor who will not even consider raising taxes, fees and is willing to let the gas tax expire, it doesn't give me much hope right now and a City Council who is about on the same level. I had high hopes for Brown after he was elected, but those are fading now.

[Steve_Lovett]

I like Steve's plan.  It appears that a ton of thought has been put into it.  I wish this was done for a space like Hogans Creek/Springfield Parks, which I believe would have a high positive impact on downtown and the urban core in general.  The courthouse green on West Adams is another space that could have a significant impact on a bombed out section of downtown if we paid it any attention. 

However, I do think it would be better if there were more interaction with the surrounding blocks and perhaps the courthouse annex was left in it and re-purposed to something useful.  Steve, do you have a rough cost estimate of your proposal?  Unless that tower is in danger of falling to the ground structurally, it would be crazy for us to demolish it instead of undergoing a more thoughtful, intelligent decision-making process that truly evaluates its potential for redevelopment.  With that said, I think such a process should also look at the surrounding area outside of the courthouse/courthouse annex site's borders as well.

Btw, I think we have (had) some great parks outside of Memorial Park, Hogans Creek being one of them.  Unfortunately, we've let them or the neighborhoods around them go to hell since 1950.  Depending on how one looks at it, bringing them back can be viewed as an opportunity for our community.

Ennis - there is far more detail to the plan that a reduced on-line version can show. It's very much engaged at a human street-scale level with the Bay Street activity - including interactive water features, a canopy of trees, seatwalls, and spaces that can be highly programmed or function well as passive areas. It should be a park that stands up to any great park in any great city. BTW - this is just one idea. Whatever is done here should be grounded in public input, participation, and represent a high level of community ownership.

I agree re: Courthouse Annex. The Courthouse Park concept can be phased block-by-block. There's a couple of years of activity remaining in that building. A repurposed building can be designed to engage the park - I suspect a well-conceived park would make that building's redevelopment more viable, and sooner.

You mentioned Hogans Creek. This kind of approach and decision-making process should be applied there - and to a ton of other decision points in the city (Shipyards, Southbank Riverwalk, JEA site, The Landing, Hemming Park, etc, etc.). Each of these needs to address the context, and to accomplish multiple objectives - as you suggest. I've been working on a framework of sorts that is in alignment with your thoughts.

[tufsu1]

yes...Steve Lovett's park drawings are in this week's Business Journal....and while it is a far better idea than the one floated by Ted Pappas, I still think the best use for most of the site is as a new convention facility....as for a park, why not put a green roof on top of the building, yielding acres of passive and/or active rec space too!

A convention center on this site will: 1.) Require major structural upgrades to support it on piles over the river, probably to the tune of $15-20MM, plus expensive ongoing maintenance given the exposure to dynamic river action and the depth of the river along that portion of the northbank (65'+); 2.) Yield a convention center that is on an extremely small site and not adaptable or expandable to meet potential future markets; 3.) Be located immediately adjacent to a jail (I don't think convention attendees and police headquarters/jail are ideal immediate neighbors); and 4.) Create a massive barrier between the Bay Street public edge and the river, permanently sacrificing an opportunity to connect the Bay Street redevelopment area from the waterfront.

1. A $20million cost for shoring up the pilings is a drop ion the bucket when it comes to the long-term viability of our downtown

2. It is not that small of a site...it can easily accomodate a 200,000 square foot exhibit hall (not including what could fit on the annex)

3. Condos aren't ideal next to a jail either...but guess what, they got built...as did a 950+ room hotel 2 blocks away....fact is, putting the convention center right nexty to the Hyatt is ideal...and if it needed to be expanded in the future, the police buidling and jail would be optimal locations...and then you just build a diagonal connecting bridge (like orlando just did).

4. Bay Street is mainly an entertainment district....so having conventioneers in town spending money at restaurants and bars will be fine...as for connecting to the river, that can be done as part of streetscape enhancements to Market and/or Liberty Streets 

[Steve_Lovett]

We should demand more, I agree. But, look at what we have in office a mayor who will not even consider raising taxes, fees and is willing to let the gas tax expire, it doesn't give me much hope right now and a City Council who is about on the same level. I had high hopes for Brown after he was elected, but those are fading now.

The Mayor works for the people. It's not the other way around. I'm often discouraged too, but I'm unwilling to accept the longstanding conventional wisdom of Jacksonville that is largely responsible for leaving the city decades behind its peer cities.

It may not happen overnight, but articulating a more intelligent perspective that achieves greater growth and quality of life is better than a perpetual sense of hopelessness and dissatisfaction.     

[acme54321]

In regards to the elevated parking lot situation.... 

Why not build a seawall and fill it in?  Clearly that has happened on the adjacent hyatt and berkman parcels.  It's not like you are damaging the river there.  It's been covered by a parking lot for 50 years. 

[Steve_Lovett]

yes...Steve Lovett's park drawings are in this week's Business Journal....and while it is a far better idea than the one floated by Ted Pappas, I still think the best use for most of the site is as a new convention facility....as for a park, why not put a green roof on top of the building, yielding acres of passive and/or active rec space too!

A convention center on this site will: 1.) Require major structural upgrades to support it on piles over the river, probably to the tune of $15-20MM, plus expensive ongoing maintenance given the exposure to dynamic river action and the depth of the river along that portion of the northbank (65'+); 2.) Yield a convention center that is on an extremely small site and not adaptable or expandable to meet potential future markets; 3.) Be located immediately adjacent to a jail (I don't think convention attendees and police headquarters/jail are ideal immediate neighbors); and 4.) Create a massive barrier between the Bay Street public edge and the river, permanently sacrificing an opportunity to connect the Bay Street redevelopment area from the waterfront.

1. A $20million cost for shoring up the pilings is a drop ion the bucket when it comes to the long-term viability of our downtown

2. It is not that small of a site...it can easily accomodate a 200,000 square foot exhibit hall (not including what could fit on the annex)

3. Condos aren't ideal next to a jail either...but guess what, they got built...as did a 950+ room hotel 2 blocks away....fact is, putting the convention center right nexty to the Hyatt is ideal...and if it needed to be expanded in the future, the police buidling and jail would be optimal locations...and then you just build a diagonal connecting bridge (like orlando just did).

4. Bay Street is mainly an entertainment district....so having conventioneers in town spending money at restaurants and bars will be fine...as for connecting to the river, that can be done as part of streetscape enhancements to Market and/or Liberty Streets

$20mm is taxpayer money that should be invested carefully. It will require constant maintenance in such a dynamic river environment, and eventual replacement - at a much higher figure sometime in the future. Once you spend it today you aren't done.

Maybe you can fit 200k sf on the site. What have you done to the quality of the environment a block or two from the river with a high-capacity multi-story facility that caters to guests/tourists rather than the residents? I suggest that a convention center on the river creates a massive wall that diminishes the value and potential redevelopment of the Bay Street corridor and the blocks to the north.

The condos and hotel are struggling in their current locations - and one half-bombed out Berkman Tower sits unfinished. An inviting waterfront park/square is a strong connection between a potential convention center and host hotel.

Bay Street may be thought of as an entertainment district now, but it can be much more, with the blocks north an organically grown, highly dynamic mixed use district that supports residential, restaurants, more hotels, bars, office, and whatever else. An "entertainment center" is a contrived model that rarely works. Convention guests and visitors want places that have integrity to the city's they are visiting - they want to see where "real life" in a city happens. Savannah, Charleston, Portland, San Antonio, Seattle, and Greenville are good examples of this.

[Steve_Lovett]

In regards to the elevated parking lot situation.... 

Why not build a seawall and fill it in?  Clearly that has happened on the adjacent hyatt and berkman parcels.  It's not like you are damaging the river there.  It's been covered by a parking lot for 50 years.

That's an option, but a very expensive option as well. With the river roughly 60-65' deep it would be a major structural seawall, at probably a similar price tag. And it would need constant ongoing maintenance & eventual replacement at the end of its life-cycle.

[tufsu1]

Steve...you're suggesting that the park/squrae would be a strong connection between a potential convention center and host hotel....so where are you proposing a convention center be built?

as a sidebar, some images of what a convention center on the courthouse/parking lot site could look like can be found here.

http://transformjax.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/more-convention-center-concept-images/

[Ocklawaha]

Oh no, you mean we'd cashier the Jaxiananmen Square idea for a focus on our waterfront and Riverwalk?

...I love it, but also think the old City Hall should be spared and recycled. Moving the Sheriff's office out to a near courthouse location and the jail to, um, perhaps Goat Island, would be an improvement too.

[Steve_Lovett]

Steve...you're suggesting that the park/squrae would be a strong connection between a potential convention center and host hotel....so where are you proposing a convention center be built?

as a sidebar, some images of what a convention center on the courthouse/parking lot site could look like can be found here.

http://transformjax.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/more-convention-center-concept-images/

Personally, I think the current Jail/Police Headquarters site is a preferred location. It's proximity to the River/Shipyards site, to the Hyatt (kitty-corner through Courthouse Park), and potential synergies with other high-capacity venues such as the Arena, Ballpark, and Stadium are strong. It can also be helpful in connecting the stadium district with the downtown core and encourage organic growth and redevelopment in the blocks immediately north of the old courthouse/annex - west of the current jail police headquarters (which are currently pretty much no-man's land).

The TransformJax images of the Convention Center on the river doesn't leave any meaningful space along the river, is overwhelming to the human scale of Bay Street, and separates the main public edge along Bay Street from the river. Yes, you can create a great convention center on that site - but what other opportunities have you lost in doing so...?

[tufsu1]

why is it overwhelming (proposed building isn't as tall as the Churchwell Lofts) to the pedestrian scale?  Following your point, why would it not be overwhelming if built where the police station and jail currently sit?

As an example, check out the Pennsylvania Covention Center in Philly on Google Maps....it is much bigger than what is being proposed here (goes for several blocks along Arch St) and has arguably improved the pedestrian experience vs. what was there previously....also look at the Frontier Center in Milwaukee

http://www.paconvention.com/

http://www.midwestairlinescenter.com/categories/2-frontierairlinescenter

[vicupstate]

Steve...you're suggesting that the park/squrae would be a strong connection between a potential convention center and host hotel....so where are you proposing a convention center be built?

as a sidebar, some images of what a convention center on the courthouse/parking lot site could look like can be found here.

http://transformjax.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/more-convention-center-concept-images/

Personally, I think the current Jail/Police Headquarters site is a preferred location. It's proximity to the River/Shipyards site, to the Hyatt (kitty-corner through Courthouse Park), and potential synergies with other high-capacity venues such as the Arena, Ballpark, and Stadium are strong. It can also be helpful in connecting the stadium district with the downtown core and encourage organic growth and redevelopment in the blocks immediately north of the old courthouse/annex - west of the current jail police headquarters (which are currently pretty much no-man's land).

The TransformJax images of the Convention Center on the river doesn't leave any meaningful space along the river, is overwhelming to the human scale of Bay Street, and separates the main public edge along Bay Street from the river. Yes, you can create a great convention center on that site - but what other opportunities have you lost in doing so...?

I've always thought the best single location for a COnvention Center would be the jail/police site, for all the reasons you list.  It would be close enough to the river to still be basically 'riverfront' but yet on a much larger site than the courthouse and serve as a connector for the Northbank and the Stadium district.  Plus the courthouse site could be use for some other purpose. 

[acme54321]

I think we can all agree that the jail needs to GO.

[I-10east]

Everyone wants to move things, but no one has any idea where to relocate them; So where are the jail and police department gonna relocate to? That does not seem practical at all IMO, it simply will not happen; You might as well wish for the Morocco Temple, or the Immaculate Conception to move, it will have the same effect, none.