The Premature Destruction of Downtown Jacksonville

[Debbie Thompson]

When a company I used to work for bought and moved to the old school board building on San Marco, they removed all but the steel framework and re-built it.  That framework is expensive, and so is the brick facade on the city buildings on the river.   Not to mention the cost of demolition.  Of course, they can be rehabbed cheaper than carting the entire thing off to Trail Ridge and starting over.

[Timkin]

Where there is a will , there is most definitely ALWAYS, a way !

[ChriswUfGator]

well, since there is no demand downtown for housing, hotel rooms, restaurants, parking or whatever. What would go in the restored buildings?

Who's to say that, as lake pointed out, any of that would still be the case 24 years from now...

[JaxArchitect]

I’m glad to hear that there is some dialog regarding the fate of the old Courthouse and City Hall Annex.  Prior to this article, I thought it was a forgone conclusion that the buildings were going to be demolished with no alternatives even considered.
My concern is that in our haste to demolish these buildings to make another poorly maintained and underused public park, we will miss an opportunity to redevelop the property while making use of the existing resource.  Sadly, this is the typical pattern in Jacksonville and the reason why we have so little remaining of our past architectural (and cultural) history. 
I personally think that these buildings have significant merit and if you can get past the patina formed from years of City (lack of) maintenance, the bones of these buildings are quite elegant.  Certainly, they have enough value to consider retaining them, even if it is done selectively, while enhancing the areas in need of improvement.  Every style of architecture goes through stages of love/hate with the general public.  Appreciation for this type of mid-century modern design is on the rise and could very well make these buildings very marketable in the near future.  Furthermore, in my experience as an Architect, it is almost always more cost effective and less energy intensive to renovate an existing building than to demolish and start from scratch.
I have no misconception about the state of the economy and the likelihood of this happening in the near future.  I know how difficult it is to put the pieces together to redevelop a property such as this.  However, I’m still optimistic that the economy will improve and someday redeveloping our riverfront will be feasible again.
I’ve seen plans that have been developed for a new park, and the drawings are quite beautiful and enticing.  However, with no other programmed use to activate the space such as adjacent housing, retail, and office space, these types of spaces tend to fall into disrepair and never live up to their planned use as a “festival” space.  Ultimately, the leaders of Jacksonville need to recognize that until there is more housing downtown (for which there is documented demand), we will never have the vibrant city that we all yearn for.  When this is achieved, public spaces such as this have the potential to be successful.
I agree with Steve Lovett’s comment that, before anything is done, it is critical to set goals and prioritize what we want to be when we grow up.  If these particular buildings don’t get saved, I hope it’s because there was some serious dialog about what is the right use of this property, not just a knee jerk reaction because no one knew what else to do.

[tufsu1]

yes...Steve Lovett's park drawings are in this week's Business Journal....and while it is a far better idea than the one floated by Ted Pappas, I still think the best use for most of the site is as a new convention facility....as for a park, why not put a green roof on top of the building, yielding acres of passive and/or active rec space too!

[Timkin]

I’m glad to hear that there is some dialog regarding the fate of the old Courthouse and City Hall Annex.  Prior to this article, I thought it was a forgone conclusion that the buildings were going to be demolished with no alternatives even considered.
My concern is that in our haste to demolish these buildings to make another poorly maintained and underused public park, we will miss an opportunity to redevelop the property while making use of the existing resource.  Sadly, this is the typical pattern in Jacksonville and the reason why we have so little remaining of our past architectural (and cultural) history. 
I personally think that these buildings have significant merit and if you can get past the patina formed from years of City (lack of) maintenance, the bones of these buildings are quite elegant.  Certainly, they have enough value to consider retaining them, even if it is done selectively, while enhancing the areas in need of improvement.  Every style of architecture goes through stages of love/hate with the general public.  Appreciation for this type of mid-century modern design is on the rise and could very well make these buildings very marketable in the near future.  Furthermore, in my experience as an Architect, it is almost always more cost effective and less energy intensive to renovate an existing building than to demolish and start from scratch.
I have no misconception about the state of the economy and the likelihood of this happening in the near future.  I know how difficult it is to put the pieces together to redevelop a property such as this.  However, I’m still optimistic that the economy will improve and someday redeveloping our riverfront will be feasible again.
I’ve seen plans that have been developed for a new park, and the drawings are quite beautiful and enticing.  However, with no other programmed use to activate the space such as adjacent housing, retail, and office space, these types of spaces tend to fall into disrepair and never live up to their planned use as a “festival” space.  Ultimately, the leaders of Jacksonville need to recognize that until there is more housing downtown (for which there is documented demand), we will never have the vibrant city that we all yearn for.  When this is achieved, public spaces such as this have the potential to be successful.
I agree with Steve Lovett’s comment that, before anything is done, it is critical to set goals and prioritize what we want to be when we grow up.  If these particular buildings don’t get saved, I hope it’s because there was some serious dialog about what is the right use of this property, not just a knee jerk reaction because no one knew what else to do.

  ^I love the way you think !!!! +1,000,000!!!

[Debbie Thompson]

JaxArchitect, write to the City Council and Mayor's office.  Give them your professional opinions, as an architect, about the adaptive re-use possibilities of the buildings. 

[fsujax]

Lake, I was being sarcastic about there being no demand for anything downtown.

[tlemans]

Who says there's no demand?  At the FTU editorial board meeting last week Alvin Brown practically swore companies are calling daily about possibly coming downtown in response to Everbank's move.  Downtown is so empty even 7-Eleven decided it was feasible to immediately open up two stores blocks from each other.  Downtowns are in demand nationwide.  Downtown Jax's struggles are the same as the struggle that keeps the city from retaining a larger margin of young professionals.  Too many public regulations and a reluctance to allow free flowing market rate innovation and creativity.

You hit the nail on the head Lakelander. As a man thinks so is he. I would like to say that as a city thinks so is it. The mentality has to change in Jacksonville. Too many public regulations!

[Ocklawaha]

This is a repost from another thread...


the Pantheon in Rome has been in continuous use as a church or temple since it was built in about 126 CE.

The Maison Carre is older, having been built circa 16 BC. It's the best really complete temple from the classical world that still exists, and it was turned into a Church, too. It still functions as a museum.

Theatre_of_Marcellus, Julius Caesar started building it; it was first used for performances in 17BC, finished 12BC, used variously as a theatre, then fortress, then residences.

Ye Olde Fighting Cocks is a public house in St Albans, Hertfordshire, which is one of several that lay claim to being the oldest in England, 800 years.  It currently holds the official Guinness Book of Records title, but Ye Olde Man & Scythe in Bolton, Greater Manchester has claimed it is older by some 234 years.

Qufu Confucius Temple (Kong Miao).  The Temple started as three houses in the year of 478 BC, the second year after the death of Confucius, in continuous use, today it's a museum of culture.

A few years back, Dutch architects Merkx + Girod converted a Dominican church into one of the coolest bookstores ever, the Boekhandel Selexyz Dominicanen in Maastricht was built in 1294.

Temple of the Flourishing Law) is a Buddhist temple in Ikaruga, Nara Prefecture, Japan. Its full name is Hōryū Gakumonji, or Learning Temple of the Flourishing Law, the complex serving as seminary and monastery both. It was built in 607 burned then rebuilt in 711.

The Pickman house in Salem MA. was built in 1664, it serves as the nations oldest continuously operated museum today.

Gonzalez-Alvarez House in St. Augustine, built in 1723, adaptive reuse as a museum.

Bottom line, with every brick that comes down/came down in Jacksonville, we lose irretrievable history. There is just no reason for our city to continue this destructive course.

[Steve_Lovett]

yes...Steve Lovett's park drawings are in this week's Business Journal....and while it is a far better idea than the one floated by Ted Pappas, I still think the best use for most of the site is as a new convention facility....as for a park, why not put a green roof on top of the building, yielding acres of passive and/or active rec space too!

A convention center on this site will: 1.) Require major structural upgrades to support it on piles over the river, probably to the tune of $15-20MM, plus expensive ongoing maintenance given the exposure to dynamic river action and the depth of the river along that portion of the northbank (65'+); 2.) Yield a convention center that is on an extremely small site and not adaptable or expandable to meet potential future markets; 3.) Be located immediately adjacent to a jail (I don't think convention attendees and police headquarters/jail are ideal immediate neighbors); and 4.) Create a massive barrier between the Bay Street public edge and the river, permanently sacrificing an opportunity to connect the Bay Street redevelopment area from the waterfront.

If it's going to require a $20MM investment, lets invest that toward the cost of a new jail - located in better proximity to the new courthouse. The jail in its current location will forever create a divide between the downtown core and sports complex and be an impediment in the growth and revitalization downtown. 

Unfortunately a fair amount of my article was edited, but my point was more about creating a strong set of goals and values and holding those as the benchmark of all of the city's decisions. The park was just one example of what's possible if we establish values and try to achieve as many good things as possible with any decision. If you check out www.elm-plan.com and look under the "news" section you can see the full article.

[Steve_Lovett]

I’m glad to hear that there is some dialog regarding the fate of the old Courthouse and City Hall Annex.  Prior to this article, I thought it was a forgone conclusion that the buildings were going to be demolished with no alternatives even considered.
My concern is that in our haste to demolish these buildings to make another poorly maintained and underused public park, we will miss an opportunity to redevelop the property while making use of the existing resource.  Sadly, this is the typical pattern in Jacksonville and the reason why we have so little remaining of our past architectural (and cultural) history. 
I personally think that these buildings have significant merit and if you can get past the patina formed from years of City (lack of) maintenance, the bones of these buildings are quite elegant.  Certainly, they have enough value to consider retaining them, even if it is done selectively, while enhancing the areas in need of improvement.  Every style of architecture goes through stages of love/hate with the general public.  Appreciation for this type of mid-century modern design is on the rise and could very well make these buildings very marketable in the near future.  Furthermore, in my experience as an Architect, it is almost always more cost effective and less energy intensive to renovate an existing building than to demolish and start from scratch.
I have no misconception about the state of the economy and the likelihood of this happening in the near future.  I know how difficult it is to put the pieces together to redevelop a property such as this.  However, I’m still optimistic that the economy will improve and someday redeveloping our riverfront will be feasible again.
I’ve seen plans that have been developed for a new park, and the drawings are quite beautiful and enticing.  However, with no other programmed use to activate the space such as adjacent housing, retail, and office space, these types of spaces tend to fall into disrepair and never live up to their planned use as a “festival” space.  Ultimately, the leaders of Jacksonville need to recognize that until there is more housing downtown (for which there is documented demand), we will never have the vibrant city that we all yearn for.  When this is achieved, public spaces such as this have the potential to be successful.
I agree with Steve Lovett’s comment that, before anything is done, it is critical to set goals and prioritize what we want to be when we grow up.  If these particular buildings don’t get saved, I hope it’s because there was some serious dialog about what is the right use of this property, not just a knee jerk reaction because no one knew what else to do.

There are numerous existing buildings awaiting redevelopment (Old Main Library, Trio, Barnett, Ambassador, etc.) and numerous others with very high vacancy rates. Increased residential development will become more viable if the city is a great place, and parks play a large role in that. I'd suggest that Memorial Park is the last great park the City of Jacksonville has created, and it has become the "living room" of Riverside, translating value several blocks perpendicular to the river. I believe that the Courthouse Site has the opportunity to achieve the same - and begin the process of further redevelopment in the Bay Street District and in the blocks further north, as well as creating a high quality accessible waterfront for everyone.

Your very last sentence is on the mark. A more thoughtful, intelligent decision-making process is most definitely needed.

[thelakelander]

I like Steve's plan.  It appears that a ton of thought has been put into it.  I wish this was done for a space like Hogans Creek/Springfield Parks, which I believe would have a high positive impact on downtown and the urban core in general.  The courthouse green on West Adams is another space that could have a significant impact on a bombed out section of downtown if we paid it any attention. 

However, I do think it would be better if there were more interaction with the surrounding blocks and perhaps the courthouse annex was left in it and re-purposed to something useful.  Steve, do you have a rough cost estimate of your proposal?  Unless that tower is in danger of falling to the ground structurally, it would be crazy for us to demolish it instead of undergoing a more thoughtful, intelligent decision-making process that truly evaluates its potential for redevelopment.  With that said, I think such a process should also look at the surrounding area outside of the courthouse/courthouse annex site's borders as well.

Btw, I think we have (had) some great parks outside of Memorial Park, Hogans Creek being one of them.  Unfortunately, we've let them or the neighborhoods around them go to hell since 1950.  Depending on how one looks at it, bringing them back can be viewed as an opportunity for our community.

[mtraininjax]

Riverside Park was the original park for Riverside and is larger than Memorial Park, has more amenities, and sort of gets forgotten since it is nearest to Annie Lytle, now if AL can get rebuilt, recreated into something new and exciting, RP will become a destination park. The dog park proposal may help with this as well.

Empty and unused buildings need look no further than the Bostwick Building downtown to see the future. We still have the old public library sitting empty.

[fsujax]

Another great park, that will not be maintained, activated and over ran by the homeless population is not we need Downtown right now.