Live blogging the vote for 2012-296, human rights ordinance.

[Timkin]

That they don't get the irony of that which they claim is happening to them.   They are being discriminated against because they are black??


HELLOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!    You are discriminating against Gays, Lesbians, Transgenders,  on the basis of their sexual identity (and because you see it as a direct conflict of your personal religious convictions)  by not passing this bill and letting the matter GO!!   

[AshleyLauren]

But, the other two have barely spoken on the matter of bill 2012-296.

I forgot to ask, Bishop is the one to appoint the presidents of the five committees. And the council members elected Bishop to CC President??

[Timkin]

Stephen...

For the record, I only have met CM Jones and I like and respect the man.  That is the first point.

Secondly .. maybe I misunderstand the article.  It says " JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -

At a time when the City Council is taking up an anti-discrimination bill, some council members are charging the council is discriminating itself by not appointing black members to key positions.

Council members Denise Lee, Warren Jones, Johnny Gaffney and Kimberly Daniels held a special meeting Thursday to talk about appointments made by upcoming council President Bill Bishop."


I don't know what I said , that was offensive. Please forgive me.  My point was, these Council people are taking issue, claiming discrimination.. Or am I reading that wrong? Please feel free to correct me.

Maybe I should correct one portion of my previous statement. Maybe "THEY" meaning all four council people are not discriminating against bill # 2012-296.  ( If so I profusely stand corrected)

My main point I thought I was making was..  They feel they are being discriminated against.  I KNOW WE ARE , by this bill not being passed, by the deliberation of it meeting after meeting after meeting, and its not fair.   The way I take it is , it is okay for council to discriminate against Gays and Lesbians , but it is totally okay if some of them cry discrimination because they are not placed on the panel?

What exactly is it that I said that was offensive? Please enlighten me.

Skin color is a not an issue, to me.   If my post came across that way, I deeply and sincerely apologize.

[Tacachale]

^Your frustration is understandable, but you're painting everyone with the same brush regardless of where they actually stand on this issue. Most notably, Warren Jones introduced the HRO to the council and has been working his tail off for it, and he deserves all the support he can get.

[Tacachale]

Desmond Tutu has announced his support for the ordinance.

This is especially significant as it's coming from an international figure who knows Jacksonville quite well; he taught at UNF for a semester several years ago and was awarded an honorary doctorate. He has also come to town a number of times for speaking engagements and Episcopal Church functions.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-25/pass-sexual-orientation-bill-desmond-tutu-urges

Read all about it in the Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-desmond-tutu-jacksonville-gays-anti-discrimination-20120625,0,4836892.story

[AshleyLauren]

Desmond Tutu has announced his support for the ordinance.

This is especially significant as it's coming from an international figure who knows Jacksonville quite well; he taught at UNF for a semester several years ago and was awarded an honorary doctorate. He has also come to town a number of times for speaking engagements and Episcopal Church functions.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-25/pass-sexual-orientation-bill-desmond-tutu-urges

Read all about it in the Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-desmond-tutu-jacksonville-gays-anti-discrimination-20120625,0,4836892.story

His interest and support is quite extraordinary. However, and I hate to be a pessimist, but I feel as if God himself could walk into the chambers and voice support for the amendment to the ordinance and still half the council would not be swayed.

Has anyone heard anything else about Joost having the ability to pull the bill for a vote tomorrow night? And if there is a chance he will do it??

[Charles Hunter]

My understanding is he has the ability - whether he will do it or not is another thing.

[AshleyLauren]

My understanding is he has the ability - whether he will do it or not is another thing.

Well, he was quoted on Jacksonville.com stating, he doesn't want to end his presidency on a power trip. (more or less).

[Timkin]

^Your frustration is understandable, but you're painting everyone with the same brush regardless of where they actually stand on this issue. Most notably, Warren Jones introduced the HRO to the council and has been working his tail off for it, and he deserves all the support he can get.

I stand corrected and again apologize .   Thank you Tacachale  and Stephen. 

[jtwestside]

According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.

For once, I agree with her.

Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill

I don't understand. Is she charging that he didn't follow proper protocol with the people he did appoint or that that they were specifically excluded because of their skin color? Or could it have been that she just thinks that they should have been included solely based on their skin color.

That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.

EDIT: Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything: http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html

The Democratic Alliance (DA) is profoundly saddened by reports today indicating that Thapelo Makutle, recently named Miss Gay Kuruman, was murdered this past weekend as the victim of a homophobic hate crime.

Makutle's decapitated body was found in his home on Saturday.

This violent and gruesome assault is yet another reminder that many of our country's people are still denied the basic rights and freedoms which our Constitution enshrines.

Maybe Desmond Tutu should look for a better solution back home instead of sticking his face here where thank god at least it isn't that bad.

[Debbie Thompson]

Somehow the people of Jacksonville need to be conditioned and trained, because they are still voting council members and mayors in based on political views, social views and how well they "know" the person through church and stuff.  I think that's a difficult task that lies ahead.

Completely outside of the discussion, I know, so let's not get sidetracked too much, but Simms, what else would people base their vote on besides a candidate's political views, social views and how well they know the person?  Unfortunately, my feeling is that people don't know enough about candidates' views before they vote for them.  And that's not the electorate's fault entirely, because modern candidates run attack ads and talk fluff and PR talking points, not about their own views.  And it works for them, so little incentive to change it.

[Tacachale]

According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.

For once, I agree with her.

Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill

I don't understand. Is she charging that he didn't follow proper protocol with the people he did appoint or that that they were specifically excluded because of their skin color? Or could it have been that she just thinks that they should have been included solely based on their skin color.

That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.

EDIT: Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything: http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html

The Democratic Alliance (DA) is profoundly saddened by reports today indicating that Thapelo Makutle, recently named Miss Gay Kuruman, was murdered this past weekend as the victim of a homophobic hate crime.

Makutle's decapitated body was found in his home on Saturday.

This violent and gruesome assault is yet another reminder that many of our country's people are still denied the basic rights and freedoms which our Constitution enshrines.

Maybe Desmond Tutu should look for a better solution back home instead of sticking his face here where thank god at least it isn't that bad.

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class" or whatever the line is, it simply makes illegal to fire someone, kick them out of their house, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. If you don't believe this hasn't been happening, you need to get out more.

[Bridges]

That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.

A whole lot wrong with this here.  First, there isn't a protected class.  The anti-discrimination bill covers heterosexuals just as much as it does homosexuals.  Second, it doesn't act as a trump card.  It only serves to protect against discriminatory firing/hiring or housing.  Like Tacachale said.   

And last but not least, are you suggesting that if you can't completely get rid of something then there shouldn't be a law against it?  Murder?  Rape?  Theft?  All still happen.  Do you think government should stay out of making laws against them?

[finehoe]

Government is not the answer to every (any) problem...Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything

You might want to educate yourself on the history of civil rights legislation in this country if you think that the government can't have any effect on making the lives of members of minority groups better through legislation.

[jtwestside]

[/quote]

Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class" or whatever the line is, it simply makes illegal to fire someone, kick them out of their house, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. If you don't believe this hasn't been happening, you need to get out more.
[/quote]

Really? So I'm gay and I get kick out, fired, not hired ... etc. The immediate reason MUST be that I'm gay right? Not because there is someone more qualified, or I suck at my job or have bad credit ... etc ... etc. All you have to do is make the accusation! The burden becomes on the person accused to prove (some fucking how) that they're not homophobic or or racist or whatever That's where the bullshit is. And yes, that's a protected class. All of the sudden you're hiring the gay guy over someone more qualified just to avoid the charge and the fight. OR you're required to appoint people to certain positions on the city council just because they're black, or gay .. etc etc.