When did it all go wrong?

[cityimrov]

Was this true?  How popular was this argument?

"THE SMELL OF MONEY" -- Until the late 1980s, Jacksonville was ridiculed as "The City that Stinks."  But we're not going to complain, retorted some of the River City's residents, "It's the smell of money."

Airborne odors had long plagued Jacksonville.  On windy days, the city made its presence known up to thirty miles away.  Various factories, particularly the paper processing plants, emitted odors that provoked these types of comparisons: "burnt milk," "cooked cabbage," "rotten eggs," and just plain "fishy." One native Jacksonville resident recalled the stench as being like "rotten baked potatoes with tabasco sauce."

The River City reeked like a foul kitchen.  In 1988, Mayor Tommy Hazouri announced that he wouldn't accept the "smell of money" argument.  Local government began to put teeth into stench fighting ordinances.  Over time, these laws have freshened up the situation considerably.  In addition, Jacksonville proved one of the first cities to establish a patrol unit specifically for odor pollution.  The "odor police" tested air at various locations.

http://www.jaxhistory.com/Jacksonville%20Story/Picture%20of%20Black%20Smoke.htm

If the city, a large city no less, was willing to accept this until 1988, it's no wonder why Jax keeps going after bottom feeder industries today.  It's the status quo. 

[Adam W]

Was this true?  How popular was this argument?

"THE SMELL OF MONEY" -- Until the late 1980s, Jacksonville was ridiculed as "The City that Stinks."  But we're not going to complain, retorted some of the River City's residents, "It's the smell of money."

Airborne odors had long plagued Jacksonville.  On windy days, the city made its presence known up to thirty miles away.  Various factories, particularly the paper processing plants, emitted odors that provoked these types of comparisons: "burnt milk," "cooked cabbage," "rotten eggs," and just plain "fishy." One native Jacksonville resident recalled the stench as being like "rotten baked potatoes with tabasco sauce."

The River City reeked like a foul kitchen.  In 1988, Mayor Tommy Hazouri announced that he wouldn't accept the "smell of money" argument.  Local government began to put teeth into stench fighting ordinances.  Over time, these laws have freshened up the situation considerably.  In addition, Jacksonville proved one of the first cities to establish a patrol unit specifically for odor pollution.  The "odor police" tested air at various locations.

http://www.jaxhistory.com/Jacksonville%20Story/Picture%20of%20Black%20Smoke.htm

If the city, a major city no less, was willing to keep this until 1988, it's no wonder why Jax keeps going after bottom feeder industries.

I remember sitting in class in the 6th grade at Susie Tolbert 6th grade center (on W 13th street) and almost vomiting because the smell was so bad. It was making me gag and there was no way to get away from it. We didn't have AC and had to have the windows open in the spring and summer. That was in '83. My first couple of years at Stanton were bad, too - we didn't get AC there until I was in 9th grade and it was more of the same.

[cityimrov]

I remember sitting in class in the 6th grade at Susie Tolbert 6th grade center (on W 13th street) and almost vomiting because the smell was so bad. It was making me gag and there was no way to get away from it. We didn't have AC and had to have the windows open in the spring and summer. That was in '83. My first couple of years at Stanton were bad, too - we didn't get AC there until I was in 9th grade and it was more of the same.

1988, 1988!  I almost can't believe what I'm reading.  Yes, the city got it's money but at the cost of everything else.  Look at what was happening to the rest of the county from 1930 to 1988!! 

There's no way any smart, creative, well doing person would stay in a place that would make them gag.  They would be more worried about breathing than creating new things.  How did Jacksonville get Mayo Clinic to come here?  If I was a researcher and smelled this stench, I would be looking for fights to the other cities immediately! 

[cityimrov]

Was this true?  How popular was this argument?

"THE SMELL OF MONEY" -- Until the late 1980s, Jacksonville was ridiculed as "The City that Stinks."  But we're not going to complain, retorted some of the River City's residents, "It's the smell of money."

Airborne odors had long plagued Jacksonville.  On windy days, the city made its presence known up to thirty miles away.  Various factories, particularly the paper processing plants, emitted odors that provoked these types of comparisons: "burnt milk," "cooked cabbage," "rotten eggs," and just plain "fishy." One native Jacksonville resident recalled the stench as being like "rotten baked potatoes with tabasco sauce."

The River City reeked like a foul kitchen.  In 1988, Mayor Tommy Hazouri announced that he wouldn't accept the "smell of money" argument.  Local government began to put teeth into stench fighting ordinances.  Over time, these laws have freshened up the situation considerably.  In addition, Jacksonville proved one of the first cities to establish a patrol unit specifically for odor pollution.  The "odor police" tested air at various locations.

http://www.jaxhistory.com/Jacksonville%20Story/Picture%20of%20Black%20Smoke.htm

If the city, a large city no less, was willing to accept this until 1988, it's no wonder why Jax keeps going after bottom feeder industries today.  It's the status quo.

Who owned the paper company?

Darth Ball.

Ball, of course, had a big hand it.  What I don't get is why didn't the general public do anything about it. 

Before 1950s: I could have accepted the Great Depression excuse.  It was a mistake but an understandable one. 
1950s: General Protests from the Public
1960s: Large Scale Protests
1970s: Pitchforks, Torches, and Bulldozers ready to tear down the place down!

That's what any sane city would have done.  Instead, it took Jacksonville until it was almost 1990 to do anything about it.  What was the general public doing at the time?   

Disney and Bush Gardens were lucky they didn't build in Jacksonville.  It would have been a disaster for Florida's theme park industry if they built here. 

[Ocklawaha]

John Martin promised to fight the film industry just as Hayden Burns promised to fight corruption and restore proper bus service.  I know exactly what the Wikipedia listing says as well as you do, and it is sadly in need of massive corrections.

It is based on the presumptions of several extremely mistaken local historians, for example.

No doubt Stephen, we've proved that with the 'Cowford' and 'Harlem' myths. Martin and Burns might not have been villains or idiots, based on the times they lived in anymore then such notable figures as Andrew Jackson or Robert E. Lee. In the end however, both did irreparable harm to the city in the name of 'progress.'

As for Wikipedia, I don't trust it any more then you do, but any newbies reading this should know we're on the same team.

Remember that John Martin (who campaigned in 1917 but did not take office until 1918, the Year that world war one ended, and the military ship building industry took off.

The men coming home from that war were traumatized and celebrated in their hometown-----a subject not nearly discussed enough considering  the lovely monument in memorial park.

Funny that we're having this discussion now, June 21, 1884, was John Martin's birthday. John Martin was a Jacksonville lawyer beginning in 1914 and was elected Mayor of Jacksonville in 1917. He was Mayor until 1923. He went on to become Governor of Florida and a United States Senator. For whatever it's worth, Martin was just 4 years older then ED Ball.

Note to ourselves, WHY don't we have a genuine Spanish American War museum, memorial and national historic site?

This is two years after Jacksonville's mayor during the great fire won a resounding re election on the campaign promise to re legalize and re open the bordellos of Ward Street ---- a promise which he kept, and which lasted until prostitution was criminalizes again many years later in 1953.

Duncan Fletcher was our mayor from 1901-03, the great fire was May 3, 1901, meaning that J.E.T. Bowden was still in office when the fire devastated the city in 1901, Bowden was then reelected in 1915-17, serving until Martin took office.

U.S. Supreme Court
ST. JOE PAPER CO v. ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO. , 347 U.S. 980 (1954)
347 U.S. 980

ST. JOE PAPER CO., Jesse Ball Du Pont, Elbert Dent, et al., Petitioners,
v.
The ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO.

S. A. LYNCH, S. A. Lynch Corporation, et al., Petitioners,
v.
The ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO.

J. Bryson AIRD and Bank of the Manhattan Company, Successor Mortgage Trustees, Petitioners,
v.
The ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO.

W. G. WELBON, E. N. Claughton, and A. W. Corbett, Petitioners,
v.
The ATLANTIC COAST LINE RAILROAD CO.

Nos. 24, 33, 36, 37.

Supreme Court of the United States

May 24, 1954

...That issue is not present on the phase of the case now tendered for decision. Even though the reorganization may not be consummated under the merger and consolidation provisions of the plan, it may be consummated under the provision of the plan which allows the transfer and conveyance, with the approval of the reorganization court, of the property of the debtor to Atlantic Coast Line. Trustees in bankruptcy have traditionally had the right to dispose of the bankrupt's assets under the supervision of the bankruptcy court. That power is as ancient as bankruptcy itself.

Why may not the trustees of Florida East Coast sell its property to Atlantic Coast Line, if the reorganization court approves? [347 U.S. 980, 982]   Section 5(2) of the Interstate Commerce Act, 49 U.S.C.A. 5(2), must, of course, be complied with whether there be a merger, a consolidation, or a purchase of property. But note what 5(2)(a) says when a purchase of property is involved:

'It shall be lawful, with the approval and authorization of the Commission, as provided in subdivision (b)-
'(i) ... for any carrier ... to purchase ... the properties ... of another ....'
We learn from the decisions of the Commission that when a purchase of assets is involved, only the purchaser need make application for the unification. There are at least eight cases which illustrate the procedure. etc.

Thankfully, Ball won the fight with the bond holders, had Lynch prevailed the Atlantic Coast Line trains would have ran straight through Jacksonville barely slowing through the old Terminal or the south side. Bowden Yard, Moncrief Yard, and most of Simpson Yard and the old West Jax Yard would have been small scale operations. Virtually no transfer trains would be stretching themselves over that bridge downtown and holding up traffic in San Marco, the trains would have originated in distant Rocky Mount, Hamlet or Waycross and Jacksonville's role would have been small potatoes. The CSX octopus would have swallowed it all and had an ABSOLUTE MONOPOLY on railroading in Florida.

Disney and Bush Gardens were lucky they didn't build in Jacksonville.  It would have been a disaster for Florida's theme park industry if they built here.

Not really, had the crew from California really invaded Jacksonville rather then Orlando and started throwing money into the city like they have down there, ED Ball, nor any combination of paint or toilet paper could have deterred them from their task. Jacksonville would have liberalized and sent the old school NIMBY'S up the river toward some little citrus town like 'Orlando' or maybe a cattle trading outpost like 'Kissimmee.' Disney and Busch would have rewritten the ENTIRE history of this city almost from the time their first plane landed.

But before everyone throws up their hands in despair, consider that not everyone wants to live with the mouse, and that the mouse himself is actually a rat! Jacksonville-Fernandina-St.Augustine form a historic triangle every bit as significant in world affairs as the conquistador's, the nation's and the navies that fought over it. With more state and national parks and monuments within a 45 minute drive from downtown then any other city in the United States, we must seem to many, not unlike the poor tribal people in Africa, walking barefoot over diamonds. It just doesn't have to be the way it is...



OCKLAWAHA

[cityimrov]

Who are these Nifty Fifty?

When I first read about the offshore nuclear power plant, it sounded like a good idea.  The offshore power part, not the nuclear part.  That was until I thought about it more and realized none of the guys who invested in it had a clue on how to pull it off correctly.  This looked like a disaster from the get go.   The guys who had a small chance to pull it off probably left Jax ages ago!

It also shows how Jacksonville blew its chance in becoming a major oil platform supplier.   

So basically, the general public was kept in line with smoke and mirrors?  Basically, they promised them good things will happen if all they just kept in line and live with this stench? 

Also, what was National Airlines?  What did they do in Jacksonville? 

This thread has surprised me.  Things have taken so many twists and turns.

[simms3]

Quite a few are still around, btw.  At least one family is still involved in a piece of business involving oil refineries that is a relic from that era.  I believe the head of this family, as well as a few other Fifty are now in the Civic Council.

Now back to my earlier point...how does a city like Atlanta, with bad soil, no water, difficult geography, and basically everything working against it, turn into the most thriving metropolis in the South and a city like Jacksonville, with waterways, hundreds of years of history, access to tons of resources, and an excellent location on the Eastern Seaboard (virtually protected from hurricanes, too) fall behind nearly all of its peers?

That to me is an interesting question.

[jcjohnpaint]

god Sims what a great question indeed!  Corruption, Stupidity, Then What?

[cityimrov]

Quite a few are still around, btw.  At least one family is still involved in a piece of business involving oil refineries that is a relic from that era.  I believe the head of this family, as well as a few other Fifty are now in the Civic Council.

Now back to my earlier point...how does a city like Atlanta, with bad soil, no water, difficult geography, and basically everything working against it, turn into the most thriving metropolis in the South and a city like Jacksonville, with waterways, hundreds of years of history, access to tons of resources, and an excellent location on the Eastern Seaboard (virtually protected from hurricanes, too) fall behind nearly all of its peers?

That to me is an interesting question.

It's hard to say without diving deep into Atlanta's history.  Anyone up for some reading?

It's pretty obvious the makeup of the people was an asset to Atlanta.

Here's are some interesting notes from the History of Atlanta Wikipedia page.

In 1914, Asa Griggs Candler, the founder of The Coca-Cola Company and brother to former Emory President Warren Candler, persuaded the Methodist Episcopal Church South to build the new campus of Emory University in the emerging affluent suburb of Druid Hills, which borders northeastern Atlanta.

Here's another point of interest:

In the 1930s, the Great Depression hit Atlanta. With the city government nearing bankruptcy, the Coca-Cola Company had to help bail out the city's deficit.

This is interesting too www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_freeway_revolts  Did Jacksonville ever have a freeway revolt?  Do areas which have a history of freeway revolts build better mass transit lines?

[Ocklawaha]

...a city like Jacksonville, with waterways, hundreds of years of history, access to tons of resources, and an excellent location on the Eastern Seaboard (virtually protected from hurricanes)...

WE ARE NOT IMMUNE!

HURRICANES:

Sorry Simms3, but I've got to jump in on this as many of our readers might not realize that the 'hurricane resistant' nature of Jacksonville is a myth. In fact Jacksonville isn't immune to Hurricanes, Tornadoes or Earthquakes, and we have a history with all of them. Look at this record and think about the weather set-up we are seeing this year as tropical waves one after another roll across from the Gulf or the Atlantic. Like any coastal location on the east coast, gulf coast or lower west coast, we are sitting ducks if one takes aim and the steering currents are right.

"There is a 1.9% probability of a major hurricane (111 mph or greater) passing within 75 miles of Jacksonville. That means in 100 years Jacksonville could see 2 major hurricanes. This is one of the lowest probabilities of any major coastal city in Florida. Compare this with 11.1% for Miami and 5.3% for Cape Hatteras, N.C. While Florida has a high occurrence of hurricanes, northeast Florida does not." So says the hurricane experts Jack Williams and Dr. Bob Sheets, so roll the dice if you care to and compare their statements to the historical records and ask yourself, 'Do you feel lucky?'

1890â€"1899

June 16, 1893 â€" Saint Marks is struck by a tropical storm. Moderate winds and rainfall occurs throughout the northeastern portion of the state,[58] including a total of 1.51 inches in Jacksonville.

August 27, 1893 â€" The Sea Islands Hurricane parallels the eastern coastline as a major hurricane, producing winds in excess of 75 mph (120 km/h) near the coast. The winds destroy nine cottages in Mayport.

October 12, 1893 â€" A major hurricane parallels the coastline about 60 miles (95 km) offshore. The storm tide was high enough that at low tide, it was at the position of the normal high tide mark. The tide caused street flooding in Saint Augustine, with heavy damage reported in Mayport.

September 25, 1894 â€" A hurricane makes landfall near Fort Myers. In Tampa, rainfall reached 13.78 inches (350 mm), causing coastal flooding in areas. Heavy damage was reported in several cities in northeastern Florida.

October 2, 1898 â€" A Category 4 hurricane hits southern Georgia, causing severe damage in the extreme northeastern portion of the state. A storm surge of 12 feet floods and damages several buildings along the Fernandina waterfront. A conservative estimate for total damage in the state is $500,000 (1898 USD, $13 million 2008 USD).

August 13, 1899 â€" The San Ciriaco Hurricane parallels the eastern coastline, producing moderate winds and light damage.

October 5, 1899 â€" A tropical storm hits near Tampa and sinks a schooner off Fernandina Beach.

October 30, 1899 â€" A hurricane parallels the eastern Florida coastline, with several locations near the coast recording strong winds in association with the storm. No cases of serious damage are reported.
[edit]Monthly statistics



EARTHQUAKES:

Let's look at the most active period which spanned from the early 1700's into the mid 1900's, things have been ominously still for several decades... While detractors will howl "Your crazy Ock!" this is ALL HISTORICAL FACT. Next time you feel the ground move under your feet it might not be the rumble of a passing train. And as-if we can't think of enough possible freak things that could happen, the St. Augustine quake reports spoke of geysers of sand and water sprouting from the ground. This is a phenomenon known as liquefaction and it is exactly the activity that suddenly sunk Port Royal, Jamaica.

At 11.42am on June 7 1692, a windless humid day, this riotous life ended abruptly. An earthquake and tidal wave swept two thirds of the city into the sea, killing 2,000 people.

Today, the first sight you see in Port Royal is the neat white church of St Peter which replaced the original destroyed in the earthquake. The inscription on the tomb of Lewis Galdy, a French Huguenot who settled in Jamaica, relates an astonishing tale of survival: "He was swallowed up in the great earthquake . . . and by the providence of God was by another shock thrown into the sea and miraculously saved by swimming until a boat took him up." Galdy lived to the age of 80, apparently leading a much reformed life in thanks for his salvation.

1727 October 12. "Severe" tremors were reported and mentioned by Campbell (1943) and Lane (1976). However, the original record of these quakes has been lost. A severe shock was reported in New England on this date at 10:40. Reports of another shock came from Martinique on the same day. The relationship of either of these to the St. Augustine tremor was not established.

1780 February 6. A mild tremor was reported from Pensacola on this date (Lane, 1976). No damage was reported.

1781 May 8. A severe earthquake was reported at a military installation near Pensacola. While no fatalities were reported, shocks tore ammunition racks from barracks walls and leveled a house in the area (Lane, 1976).

1842 May 7. This tremor was felt from Florida to Louisiana. It may have been associated with a severe earthquake that struck Santo Domingo at about the same time. Sources report the disappearance of some Florida lakes on the day of this earthquake (Niles National Register, 1842).

1879 January 12. Two severe shocks of about 30 sec each occurred from an area from Ft. Myers to Daytona and from Tallahassee to Jacksonville, and from all areas in between. The epicenter was located at 29°30'N, 82°00'W (U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey, 1938). The shock was reported by hundreds of residents over a 25,000 square mile area of the Florida peninsula, and ranged from MMVIII to MMIX.

At St. Augustine, articles were thrown from shelves. In other locations, windows rattled violently and walls cracked. Rockwood (1880) indicated that the tremor progressed from the NW toward the SE between Gulf Hammock and Okahumpa. In the Tampa Bay area, Campbell (1943) states that the shock seemed to move from the SW to NE and was preceded by a rumbling sound ". . . as of a distant railroad train." MMVI was reported near Gainesville (Lane, 1976).

1886 January 8 (a). Reid (1886) reported a shock in Jacksonville with no damage or injuries.

1886 August 31 (b). There were a series of strong shocks in Charleston, South Carolina on this date. The tremors in Charleston began at 21:51. In Tampa, residents reported 2 shocks, the first at 21:51, the second at 22:00. The first appeared to move NE to SW, while the second seemed to travel SW to NE.

In St. Augustine, church bells tolled as the tremor passed, while near Tallahassee, the water in Lake Jackson disappeared. A well near Graceville began to flow (Campbell, 1943).

1886 September 1-9 (c). Many reports of shocks were from throughout the area, with most coming from Jacksonville. These tremors were probably associated with aftershocks from the Charleston, South Carolina earthquake (Reid, 1886).

1886 September 29 (e). Slight shock reported. No injuries, no damage (Reid, 1886).

1886 October 22 (f). A single tremor passed through Jacksonville causing windows and dishes to rattle. On this date, similar shocks were felt in Charleston, South Carolina, as well as in Atlanta and Augusta, Georgia (Campbell, 1943).

1893 June 20. A shock of at least 10 sec duration was felt in Jacksonville, MMIV (Reid, 1907).

1900 October 10 (Stover et al., 1979). Reid (1907) estimates the epicenter of this tremor to have been at 30°20'N, 81°40'W. It was felt at Jacksonville at 11:15 and afterward. Eight distinct shocks were reported without damage and injuries. The intensity of this tremor was MMV. A tremor was also felt in Lake City about this time.

1902 May 20-21. Residents reported hearing a noise like heavy cannon fire at a distance. The noises preceded the actual tremor by about 3 min. Tremors were slight and without damage (Reid, 1907).

1903 January 23. A shock wave of MMVI was felt in north Florida and in Savannah, Georgia. No damage (Lane, 1976).

1905 September 4. MMIII shock was accompanied by slight rumbling noises. Duration was 10 sec without damage (Reid, 1907).

1924 October 20. A tremor of intensity MMIV shook the area. Windows and doors rattled, but there was no damage (U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey, 1924). An earthquake was felt throughout Virginia, Tennessee and South Carolina at about the same time (Bollinger, 1977).



TORNADOES:

This subject gets swept under the rug almost with the regularity that the 'Florida Earthquake Myth' crap appears. Tornadoes can KILL YOU. How many of you realize the absolute danger everyone in Arlington and St. Johns (Hastings-Spuds, south of my house) last Monday at nightfall? Two monster 'wall clouds' rolled across both locations while Stephen and I were on the way to Regency. I told Stephen that they were dangerous, and to keep an eye on them... Before the evening was over, we had tornadoes on the ground.

Back in May of 1999, I was a City Councilman in Oklahoma, when the monster tornado swarm swept across Oklahoma City and the surrounding area's. No less then one F-3 and one F-4 lifted and passed right over my house while we huddled in the storm cellar. They didn't touch a thing, but for over 40 miles to the northeast and southwest, they left twin tracks of utter destruction. After the rescue efforts in the neighboring town of Mulhall, the National Weather Service and FEMA held a symposium for information exchange in OKC that we were 'required' to attend. At that meeting we were told we would all go through the NWS tornado spotter training course. Let's just say it was a REAL eye opener.

Jacksonville has been lucky, if ranked by tornadoes per square mile, Florida LEADS all other states including 'Tornado Alley'. Granted the tornadoes are not usually as powerful here, but that isn't a rule and we certainly have recorded exceptions. In 1998, a similar swarm of tornadoes swept across Central and North Central Florida killing 42 and injuring 250, destroying 3,000 buildings.

Here is a sampling of an active decade in our area:

            
Date/State/Fujita /Deaths /Injuries/Affected Counties

1950-03-16    Florida   2   0   0    St. Johns

1951-12-18    Florida   1   0   0    Duval

1953-12-13    Florida   1   0   0    Duval

1957-06-08    Florida   2   0   0    Clay, Duval

1957-06-08    Florida   2   0   0    Duval

1957-06-08    Florida   2   0   0    Duval

1957-07-02    Florida   ?   0   0    Duval

1957-07-09    Florida   ?   0   0    Duval

1958-04-15    Florida   3   0   9    St. Johns

1958-07-25    Florida   0   0   0    Duval

1959-06-06    Florida   1   0   0    St. Johns


THE MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE ON THESE BOARDS IS, 'WE ARE NOT IMMUNE!'

[Ocklawaha]

This is interesting too www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_freeway_revolts  Did Jacksonville ever have a freeway revolt?  Do areas which have a history of freeway revolts build better mass transit lines?

Freeway revolt? In the city that manufacturers most of the concrete that goes into Florida's highways? ARE YOU KIDDING! Jacksonville has never seen a rubber tire that it didn't love.

Cities with the most FREEway lane miles per 1,000 citizens:


1. Kansas City â€" 1.262
2. St Louis â€" 1.070
3. Houston â€" .822
4. Cleveland â€" .816
5. Columbus â€" .779
6. San Antonio â€" .759
7. Jacksonville â€" .745
8. Providence â€" .742
9. Pittsburgh â€" .731
10. Baltimore â€" .724
11. DFW â€" .719

But then Atlanta is far from utopian itself, hell, my great uncle Pierre Beauregard Mann was in charge of keeping Yankee's out of Atlanta during the War of Yankee Aggression... Atlanta's gone to hell since uncle Beauregard died...   

[Ocklawaha]

WHO ARE THEY? Well they haven't changed much...

Herb Peyton has been a Trustee of the Alfred I. duPont Testamentary Trust since January 18, 1995. He also serves on the Nemours Foundation Board of Directors. Peyton was elected as a director of Florida East Coast Industries and St. Joe Company in December, 2000 and provided the benefit of his experience through 2004, when he retired from both boards

OCKLAWAHA

[Timkin]

Quite a few are still around, btw.  At least one family is still involved in a piece of business involving oil refineries that is a relic from that era.  I believe the head of this family, as well as a few other Fifty are now in the Civic Council.

Now back to my earlier point...how does a city like Atlanta, with bad soil, no water, difficult geography, and basically everything working against it, turn into the most thriving metropolis in the South and a city like Jacksonville, with waterways, hundreds of years of history, access to tons of resources, and an excellent location on the Eastern Seaboard (virtually protected from hurricanes, too) fall behind nearly all of its peers?

That to me is an interesting question.

Simms..... you are pretty intuitive ....and make great points. And ask good questions.

[Timkin]

...a city like Jacksonville, with waterways, hundreds of years of history, access to tons of resources, and an excellent location on the Eastern Seaboard (virtually protected from hurricanes)...

WE ARE NOT IMMUNE!

HURRICANES:




THE MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE ON THESE BOARDS IS, 'WE ARE NOT IMMUNE!'

Ock...  Besides the close-enough-to-Hurricane Beryl a few weeks, ago, was Jacksonville's last direct-hit fairly sizable Hurricane, Dora in 1964?

[simms3]

Ock...lol.

Having lived in a very active Dixie Alley the last few years I laugh when you Floridians play the most tornadoes card.  You're right...but the largest tornado in FL history was an EF3, and those are very rare there.  Twice now in my 6 years in Atlanta I have been within 2 blocks of a tornado (living).  One in 2008 that was a strong EF2, almost EF3 that went through downtown, and one last year that was an EF1 that went just north of me (though the wind was enough to take out some windows in the building next to me...that was pretty damn scary).  Within 50-60 miles of Atl are 4 tracks from last year's outbreak between 880 yards wide and 1,056 yards wide, including a track from the same EF4 that went through Tuscaloosa and Birmingham...see pic below.  That was 880 yards wide, EF3 damage at that point along the highway.  The 1,056 yard wide track is equally blatant at about mile marker 211 if I remember on 75 (my exit is 250).



An exit in GA where 14 people died last year in an EF4.  I went and investigated the damage this year...too astonishing for pictures.  You can see EF2-EF3 damage from the highway, and the EF4 damage is further in.