Retail-less parking garage proposed for Downtown

[JFman00]

I'm surprised this parking garage hasn't been posted yet. If it has and I missed it, I apologize. Notice it is mixed-use. Penthouse, event space, street-level retail, 5th floor retail and of course, parking.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/24/us/24garage.html

[thelakelander]

In the meeting I can't remember who said it but they made it sound as if this would satisfy the Landing's parking situation. We have to support the DDRB's position that this should not look like a parking garage and should include the required retail. With the money the city is putting up we can have our way. I was sitting very close to the Parodor guy and he wants to push back but he is building this thing in the end.

He still has adopted development guidelines he has to follow and quite frankly, developing downtown the right way is more important to the community than a garage for his tenants (although I'm sure he doesn't feel that way).  With $3.5 million in the game, the city is nearly a 50% partner in this project.  The public deserves better and should not be willing to allow Parador to construct a bad product for the sake of being cheap.  We've been down that road with downtown before and the results haven't been pretty.  If following the minimum requirements in addition to getting 50% of the capital costs from the taxpayers makes the project unfeasible, then it shouldn't be built.

[JeffreyS]

All I am saying Lake is I believe he is committed so we can hold his feet to the fire. He will follow whatever guidelines he has to and nothing more.

[simms3]

Well I spoke with someone about the matter who spoke with someone on the DDRB and apparently this thing has little chance of passing, at least in its current state.  There seems to be unanimous agreement that the retail code should be followed without exception.

The other thing(s) I heard were that this has absolutely nothing to do with the Landing (as has been semi-established now) and that the city's $3.5M is basically a pot of money they [the developers] think they can win/deserve, but it is by no means part of any agreement with Parador and is with strings/regulations attached (albeit loose strings).

Still - there is something about this whole proposal that reeks of lack of experience?  I'm encouraged by what I hear behind the scenes.

[thelakelander]

^Thanks for the update simms3!

[JeffreyS]

Well I spoke with someone about the matter who spoke with someone on the DDRB and apparently this thing has little chance of passing, at least in its current state.  There seems to be unanimous agreement that the retail code should be followed without exception.

I have heard 2 councilmen echo those sentiments.

[Keith-N-Jax]

Well its good to hear that.

[PeeJayEss]

In the second half of the 20th century, Rouse and his company became major developers of suburban strip shopping centers and pioneered large shopping malls. In many cities, these were seen as escalating the failure of retail businesses and causing further deterioration of older, downtown core areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace

The Landing is no different from Norfolk's Waterside, Miami's Bayside, Baltimore's Harborplace, Boston's Faneuil Hall and NYC's South Street Seaport.  It's an urban center that basically focuses on its self instead of making a real effort to blend in with the environment surrounding it.  Just like the office towers built during that era.

Did they continue building strip centers and shopping malls, just in the urban areas rather than the burbs? The Landing design is focused on the water. You could build the exact same thing in Green Cove (or better, on the ICWW), surround it by parking lots, and it would probably be more successful.

Waterside, Bayside, and Harborplace are all good comparisons (and I'd add Station Square in Pittsburgh). They all embrace the water and are cut off on the road side. They all require large parking facilities. Station Square is completely isolated from the city, Waterside and Bayside aren't really walking destinations, and you'd be hard-pressed to realize something was going on if driving past Harborplace (I think the pier with the power plant is a much more attractive and urban section of the harbor, and thats a reuse). The Seaport is also kind of isolated being across FDR sticking out into the East River and located in one of the only sections of Manhattan with surface parking lots. Faneuil Hall Marketplace is pretty well tied-in with the surrounding city (though I don't get why the city hall plaza is so...pavementy). There's a good amount of reuse there. I think this one is more the exception than the rule for festival marketplaces, and it is nothing like The Landing.

It may just be my mistaken belief that contrived, isolated, and introverted cannot also be urban.

[fsujax]

There was good discussion yesterday it lasted about 2 hours. I say that is a perfect location to open a Dunkin Donuts in the ground level retail space!

[If_I_Loved_you]

There was good discussion yesterday it lasted about 2 hours. I say that is a perfect location to open a Dunkin Donuts in the ground level retail space!

I don't agree Dunkin Donuts isn't just for the morning & lunch time crowd's . And after 5pm this place like so many other places are dead. Besides I thought this proposed parking garage is to be Retail-less? Out of several parking garages in Downtown Jacksonville and Everbank on Riverside Ave for now have Retail Space without a lot of Retail? I remember Little John telling people about the parking garage for the Main Library. How the Retail on the ground floor was money well spent then putting a walking bridge over to the Library? Ha ha At this point I don't feel this new Proposed garage is needed. Being that a lot of parking garages are empty after employees go home all within walking distance to the landing?

[thelakelander]

Did they continue building strip centers and shopping malls, just in the urban areas rather than the burbs? The Landing design is focused on the water. You could build the exact same thing in Green Cove (or better, on the ICWW), surround it by parking lots, and it would probably be more successful.

Rouse built shopping malls in the burbs and festival marketplaces (different from shopping malls and strip centers) in urban areas two decades ago.  Whether we like how they meet the street, that's typically how projects were built in downtown's in during the 1980s.  However, poor ground level interactivity doesn't mean a project isn't "urban."  It's simply a poorly designed "urban" product.

It may just be my mistaken belief that contrived, isolated, and introverted cannot also be urban.

Sure it can.  It's just bad urban design.  Just up the street, I think most of us would consider both the BOA Tower and Everbank Center to be "urban."  However, they are just like the Landing.....isolated and introverted building products that focus on themselves rather than providing any attempt to integrate with the surrounding area.

[fsujax]

From the Daily Record.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2012-06-08

and I still like my DD idea! Maybe we should get PSS and this developer to team up. PSS can build a new HQ on top the proposed garage a win win for everybody!

[tufsu1]

I don't agree Dunkin Donuts isn't just for the morning & lunch time crowd's.

not true...many DD's stay open until 10pm or later. 

In fact, I stopped in one in downtown Atlanta a few months ago at 9pm and theer were several people in the store....also saw one in the tourist area of San Juan, PR that was open at midnight....I'm willing to bet they'd stay open late here if the market demand was there.

That said, requirting that retail space be provided is a good idea....regulating the type (or brand) of retail is not.

[fsujax]

I am not suggesting the City regulate what type of retail. that was just my idea.

[tufsu1]

I am not suggesting the City regulate what type of retail. that was just my idea.

I know you're not....the person saying no to DD was