Retail-less parking garage proposed for Downtown

[acme54321]

Did they saw when the workshop would be?

[JeffreyS]

They were going to put it together for next week. Haskell did suggest once meeting individually with the board members but the board wanted a public forum.

[thelakelander]

I suspect the developer's resistance to ground level retail is that a majority of the space would be unused and remain empty.  There is quite a bit of empty space downtown right now and they may not want space that cannot generate money. 

If he can't make money building to code... then don't build it. 

No way in the world should someone get taxpayer assistance to build a subpar product in the heart of downtown that is not contextually sensitive to the surrounding environment.  Downtown would live with the reprecussions of such a decision for decades.  That is not acceptable. 

It was clear that retail will not be considered.

That's fine.  If they don't want to follow the design guidelines they should not benefit from the city's $3.5 million or receive approval to build something that causes more harm than good in the heart of the core.  It's not like a suburban garage on that site is a positive improvement in downtown.  Personally, if I had any say so, if they refused to follow the minimum design standards for a property this critical, I'd deny the entire thing, much less provide $3.5 million in city money (which is a waste in its own right). 

I also believe the avoiding retail because of the market stuff is a bunch of BS.  A totally acceptable solution would be to follow Greenville, SC's example and set the garage back 50' from both Sister City Plaza and Bay Street.  That way, retail could be included as a separate structure along the street edge when viable.  That's a much better solution (which cost them nothing) than screwing up this site and the riverfront for the next 50 years for additional parking.

[Noone]

I suspect the developer's resistance to ground level retail is that a majority of the space would be unused and remain empty.  There is quite a bit of empty space downtown right now and they may not want space that cannot generate money. 

If he can't make money building to code... then don't build it. 

No way in the world should someone get taxpayer assistance to build a subpar product in the heart of downtown that is not contextually sensitive to the surrounding environment.  Downtown would live with the reprecussions of such a decision for decades.  That is not acceptable. 

It was clear that retail will not be considered.

That's fine.  If they don't want to follow the design guidelines they should not benefit from the city's $3.5 million or receive approval to build something that causes more harm than good in the heart of the core.  It's not like a suburban garage on that site is a positive improvement in downtown.  Personally, if I had any say so, if they refused to follow the minimum design standards for a property this critical, I'd deny the entire thing, much less provide $3.5 million in city money (which is a waste in its own right). 

I also believe the avoiding retail because of the market stuff is a bunch of BS.  A totally acceptable solution would be to follow Greenville, SC's example and set the garage back 50' from both Sister City Plaza and Bay Street.  That way, retail could be included as a separate structure along the street edge when viable.  That's a much better solution (which cost them nothing) than screwing up this site and the riverfront for the next 50 years for additional parking.

But moving forward isn't the plan under the new Downtown Authority the expanded control of the parking revenue for an expanded zone? Just asking but would this explain why the design is just for parking.

[I-10east]

I'd fall in the camp of saying the Landing is an urban retail center.  I think we forget that it was designed to be an 1980s style "festival marketplace" which is different from a suburban strip mall or 21st century urban retail center.

Thank you Lake. I understand that the feisty urbanites don't wanna be 'complacent' and rest on the laurels, but saying that the Landing is 'suburban' is absurd IMO. What's next, the BOA Tower is suburban too?

[JeffreyS]

I suspect the developer's resistance to ground level retail is that a majority of the space would be unused and remain empty.  There is quite a bit of empty space downtown right now and they may not want space that cannot generate money. 

If he can't make money building to code... then don't build it. 

No way in the world should someone get taxpayer assistance to build a subpar product in the heart of downtown that is not contextually sensitive to the surrounding environment.  Downtown would live with the reprecussions of such a decision for decades.  That is not acceptable. 

It was clear that retail will not be considered.

That's fine.  If they don't want to follow the design guidelines they should not benefit from the city's $3.5 million or receive approval to build something that causes more harm than good in the heart of the core.  It's not like a suburban garage on that site is a positive improvement in downtown.  Personally, if I had any say so, if they refused to follow the minimum design standards for a property this critical, I'd deny the entire thing, much less provide $3.5 million in city money (which is a waste in its own right). 

I also believe the avoiding retail because of the market stuff is a bunch of BS.  A totally acceptable solution would be to follow Greenville, SC's example and set the garage back 50' from both Sister City Plaza and Bay Street.  That way, retail could be included as a separate structure along the street edge when viable.  That's a much better solution (which cost them nothing) than screwing up this site and the riverfront for the next 50 years for additional parking.

But moving forward isn't the plan under the new Downtown Authority the expanded control of the parking revenue for an expanded zone? Just asking but would this explain why the design is just for parking.

No the clien asked Haskell to come up with a cost effective solution to his parking needs. They are just trying to make the best deal they can. In this case the city has the cards. Parodor  needs the parking, expressed they need to move quickly and has 3.5 mil to lose out on if they play the game of trying to walk away for a while.  We just need to encourage the DDRB to stick to their guns and for the council to back them up.

[simms3]

Again, if the $3.5M is a city incentive not tied to the Landing, it is to subsidize the "riskiness" of the "development" because it AIN'T GOING TO GENERATE PARKING REVENUE.

Literally the surface lot at Enterprise always has spaces.  I've even found spaces on that current surface lot.  Most if not all of the garages downtown are already half empty.  There is a GLUT of parking, and this garage isn't going to bring hoards of suburbanite shoppers in to the core to shop at nonexistent stores and pay parking fees that don't exist at any other shopping destination in the city.

This is a subsidy to prop up a shitty parking garage that won't perform.  Outrageous.

[JeffreyS]

The DDRB said they want better than has been presented and one member even said it would have to be exceptional to get his support. This parking is primarily for the Sun Trust building to serve it's tennents and future tennents. I would not be surprised if Parodor has one on the line but he has to solve parking first.

[simms3]

Which is silly.  Let's call the garage 500 spaces (which is absurdly huge for SunTrust and even the general area but it's what has been discussed).  Let's guestimate the hard costs are $12,000/space and the soft costs and fees bring that total from $6M to $8M (and land is already owned).

So virtually half the cost to build this horrid thing is coming from the taxpayers, who will undoubtedly not benefit.

Now, Parador owns 190,000 SF of condos less the few that they have managed to sell over the last couple years, which is doubtfully much at all.  So let's keep that figure at 190,000 SF, and the building is roughly what - 350,000 RSF?

To get to 1 space per 1,000 SF all they need is 350 spaces.  Right now they can already fit about 120 cars extremely comfortably on that lot.  There's 1/3 of the building easily.  Of course there's Life of the South, etc etc and not too many garages within "1 block".

Still the bottom line is that if this is economic development because it will attract some mid-size office tenant to downtown, say 50,000 SF, a 10 year lease at $18 years 1-5 and 10% increase in year 6 (12 months free) still puts the value of the lease at roughly the cost of the garage.  I don't know what they sell a 50,000 SF office condo for, but I would imagine if opex were around 1:5 rental revenue (or would-be rental revenue) and cap rates hover around 8% you're still talking about the same price as the cost of the garage.

Think about that now.  Now tell me why the hell the city should help out!!!  And then you have to assume that in addition to that 50,000 SF tenant, additional leasing/sale activity could occur.  If anything at all the city's $3.5M should receive preferential equity treatment to Parador's equity (or should be treated as some sort of mezzanine debt) and the city should then make a return for helping make a deal happen.

WTF WTF Am I an idiot missing something?  From my stance there are just too many holes here to fly through and nothing is seeming clear.

Not to mention the three guys at Parador (who had limited real estate capability/experience prior to their investment in the unsold office condos at SunTrust) made a calculated risk.  The city should not even think about stepping in unless there is a return for the city/taxpayer.  This is either a bailout or a copout (of an agreement of some sort) or something else deemed fishy.

[simms3]

[thelakelander]

^That's more cars then normal on that lot.

[simms3]

Exactly!!  That's my point!  There is NO demand for more parking and all the garages are half empty.  I have never had a problem parking at the surface lot at Enterprise Center across the street, either.

If this has nothing to do with the Landing agreement, the city is forking over a worthless subsidy for a bad investment (and a detrimental project).  Like people who pass this thing (if it so happens down the road) need to be tried or impeached.  If it's all to attract some mid-size tenant to SunTrust, the city should have NO business in that..but if it does - it needs to return taxpayer money with a return, so it needs to serve up a debt facility or a preferred equity piece rather than a "city incentive aka subsidy".

[Ocklawaha]

Neon Art's Garage
'Frankly this city could use some of Kokopelli's magic'


Strange things happen when one turns a creative or maybe a wild imagination loose on concepts for our downtown area, this little photo essay started off thinking about the neon building and Skyway lights in Jacksonville. I was thinking about COLOMBIA and the Parque De Luz (Park of Lights) and how people come from around the world visiting Colombia and many of them seek out this unique park. We've got a carbon copy veterans wall, we have a duplicate Andrew Jacksonville statue, and we copied the landing from Boston and Baltimore. What could our art community do to this ugly building?




Eldorado Casino Garage, Shreveport, LA




Neon Parking Structure
Columbia, Maryland




Cardiff Bay, UK Garage




Garage in the UK




New Garage, Atlantic City, NJ




Binons, Las Vegas




Chicago Garage that brings home the ad revenue




Okay, it's not actually a garage, but it has a lot of parked cars, NHRA Motorsport Museum




Rainbow Cove Garage, Logan Int'l Airport




Rhode Island Convention Center Garage




Neon Garage, Santa Monica




Neon Garage, Santa Monica




South Pasadena Garage



Now for the big question?



Guess we'll always have to wonder why the old line doesn't go, 'Paris, London, Rome, Jacksonville...'

[Keith-N-Jax]

Those really look nice!!!

[JeffreyS]

In the meeting I can't remember who said it but they made it sound as if this would satisfy the Landing's parking situation. We have to support the DDRB's position that this should not look like a parking garage and should include the required retail. With the money the city is putting up we can have our way. I was sitting very close to the Parodor guy and he wants to push back but he is building this thing in the end.