East Coast Passenger Rail Mentions Jax

[Ocklawaha]

The latest report just confirms what we've been saying, THIS WILL HAPPEN. There is an interesting bit about OIA having a station and apparently considers that it will be used by JACKSONVILLE PASSENGERS! Thank you Orlando. Otherwise anyone still on the fence? Just ask yourself why they are 'picking operators' and 'trains' but they still don't know if it's feasible! Yeah, right...

The company already owns 200 miles of track needed for the route- it says it will cost a billion dollars to build the final 40 miles between Cocoa and Orlando, and modify the existing freight track to accommodate the new service, called All Aboard Florida.

Spokesperson Christine Barney says there’s an appetite for intercity rail in Florida- but the ill fated high speed rail project between Tampa and Orlando shows public funding is not the way to go. 

Barney says the company is confident it will get the funding it needs to start rolling in 2 years time.

“We’re already looking at selecting the operators, picking the actual trains, you know, we’re moving very quickly," she says.
"We understand that if the project is going to move forward things have to happen quickly, but we think that’s a reasonable expectation.”

The service aims to make the trip from Orlando to Miami in about 3 hours, and could run up to 14 times a day. 
Barney says that could mean up to 3 million fewer cars on the road.

“It is going to be a learned behavior because people haven’t had this option before. But our initial studies indicate that there are enough people that don’t like the delays that occur, the traffic that occurs, the cost, wear and tear on cars, gas, and the difficulties of driving.”

The train will stop in West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, but Barney says there could be potential to link up to airports and seaports- including Port Canaveral and Orlando International Airport.

Stan Thornton, project Liaison Manager for the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority, says the airport is talking to Florida East Coast Industries about the proposed rail line.

Thornton says it could increase passenger traffic by giving people better connections to the airport.

“We have people who come down from Jacksonville, we know that from our garage traffic," says Thornton.

"It’s what we call a catchment area and we think that could increase by up to 50 per cent.”

All Aboard Florida is not the only passenger rail service that could be rolling on the east coast: Amtrak is also exploring a service from Jacksonville to Miami on the same stretch of track.

(OCK NOTE: This also bodes well for the Cocoa station which is supposedly still 'uncertain'. Fact is, if the Amtrak trains happen on the FEC, the connection to OIA from JAX would be in COCOA.)

Florida East Coast Industries says Amtrak and All Aboard could both use the track without any conflict.
The company says it will have a better idea of the final route of the train and the timeline for completion once ridership, engineering and environmental studies are finished in the next few months.

SOURCE WMFE:  http://www.wmfe.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=12779&news_iv_ctrl=1041

[tufsu1]

I have a question Ock....do you now support a rail station at OIA?

[Ocklawaha]

I have a question Ock....do you now support a rail station at OIA?

My position is unchanged on the OIA station. I've said from the start that a train passing through, using OIA as a way-stop between downtown centers would be great, but as a terminus, it would suck. The FECI project plans on a physical concoction with the State Owned Sunrail Line around Sand Lake Road and ultimate entry into Orlando proper. That connection is going to be the OUC railroad, which ALREADY connects the area east of OIA along the Beach Line with downtown via the loop around the south end of the airport. If the south terminal is ever built, it would be very close but not within the airport terminals themselves and would probably rely on a shuttle connector.

All of that is fine with me, but PLEASE don't tell me it is going to run from OIA to Miami because that would be a tragic misstep.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Where did you hear that the FECI project would extend into DT Orlando?  I could see a distinct possibility where it temporarily terminates at the Orlando Airport but riders will be able to catch a Sunrail train into DT Orlando cross platform.

[Ocklawaha]

Where did you hear that the FECI project would extend into DT Orlando?  I could see a distinct possibility where it temporarily terminates at the Orlando Airport but riders will be able to catch a Sunrail train into DT Orlando cross platform.

I believe it is implied in a couple of statements they have made:

"FEC said in a statement. "In addition, stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando mean convenient transfers to Metrorail, Metromover or SunRail, allowing passengers to reach their final destination."

"(The) company is planning a new privately owned, operated and maintained passenger train service that will connect Downtown Miami and Orlando by 2014."

There is no clear plan to extend Sunrail beyond the Sand Lake Road station in the direction of the airport. The city has proposed to build a light-rail line to connect them. They are doing an alternatives analysis now.

That being said, nothing is written in stone yet and any line could go most anywhere. I'm basing my comments on the fact that is Sunrail doesn't make it into OIA, and the FECI says they WILL connect to Sunrail, then there is absolutely no reason that an FECI train couldn't continue on up to the Lynx Transportation Center. Keep in mind the most critical piece of this plan is the OUC spur. This spur intersects the state owned Sunrail trackage where the Central Florida Parkway meets Intermodal Way/also where Orange overpasses the railroad.

The logic is simple here, they will be using a state owned right-of-way from Cocoa to East Orange County, and a city utility from East Orange to Orange Avenue, why wouldn't they continue on northward into the principal surface transportation hub? Remember railroad's run on each others trackage all the time, especially where company A is not in competition with company B in any given territory.

"In addition, stations in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando mean convenient transfers to Metrorail, Metromover or SunRail, allowing passengers to reach their final destination."

[thelakelander]

There was a plan to extend Sunrail to the airport.  If FECI comes along and basically replaces the dead HSR project with their own, it wouldn't be out of the way to see this thing pick up steam again.  If this happens, I find it hard to believe it extends north to Orlando's downtown.  There would be no need with the headways that Sunrail would be running.

[tufsu1]

correct Lake...in fact, FDOT just selcted the consultant who will do the Alternatives Analysis study for the OIA-SunRail connector...

and no Ock, it won't be connecting to downtown...fact is, the FECI line will likely follow the same alignment high speed rail was going to.

[Ocklawaha]

Well guess we'll just have to wait and see. I cannot imagine any railroad in the intercity-regional market placing a station on the far edge of town. Witness Jacksonville's Amtrak station. Even if Sunrail makes it into OIA, there is no reason to expect FECI won't be able to use the same track to access an existent rail station.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Sure, since it would then be competing with Sunrail for riders between OIA and Downtown Orlando in a similar fashion to what JTA is doing with BRT and the skyway on the Southbank. 

Unfortunately, DT Orlando was never the center point of the region because Orlando was a dusty little citrus town with no significant influence on the other Central Florida communities before Disney took over the region.  That makes Central Florida's demographics and population center somewhat different than a traditional city such as Jacksonville.

FECI has also mentioned if this initial service is successful, they'd be open to extending it to Tampa, which is the opposite direction of DT Orlando.  It will be interesting to see how all this turns out but if I were you I wouldn't get my hopes up to high this early on this particular project going into DT Orlando.  Better to be pleasantly surprised instead of utterly disappointed.

[Ocklawaha]

Sure, since it would then be competing with Sunrail for riders between OIA and Downtown Orlando in a similar fashion to what JTA is doing with BRT and the skyway on the Southbank.

Not at all Lake! It's done all of the time. Witness Amtrak and Metrolink on any number of their lines. Between Los Angeles Union Station and Fullerton for example, Amtrak's Surfliner's make exactly 0 stops. Between the same two stations on the same mainline, Metrolink stops at Commerce, Norwalk/Santa Fe Springs and Buena Park.

FECI shouldn't be too blinded by OIA that they can't see a benefit in tapping downtown, which is MUCH easier to get to from over half of the metro area then the airport is. They also won't ignore the possibility of meeting Amtrak trains to or from Tampa at the Amtrak Station, Church Street Station or perhaps the Lynx Station. I do recall hearing that they plan to go at least as far as Sand Lake Road, but I haven't located my source yet. If/When I do, I'll share it with you.

Unfortunately, DT Orlando was never the center point of the region because Orlando was a dusty little citrus town with no significant influence on the other Central Florida communities before Disney took over the region.  That makes Central Florida's demographics and population center somewhat different than a traditional city such as Jacksonville.

While it's true that Orlando is one giant Target store parking lot rather then an aged organic 'city', they are rolling right past us with a Skyline that is almost completely new. Huge development taking place in downtown Orlando, coupled with the synergy of communities like Winter Park, Altamonte, Apopka, Oviedo, Lake Mary, Heathrow, Longwood, Sanford, should make the center of population just about dead center somewhere around where Church Street crosses the Sunrail tracks... DOWNTOWN.

FECI has also mentioned if this initial service is successful, they'd be open to extending it to Tampa, which is the opposite direction of DT Orlando.  It will be interesting to see how all this turns out but if I were you I wouldn't get my hopes up to high this early on this particular project going into DT Orlando.  Better to be pleasantly surprised instead of utterly disappointed.

I'm not really too worried about it, you always win some and lose some and I'm comfortable with my crystal ball. As for the Tampa trains making a more central station location out of the way, it shouldn't effect it. I would imagine these regional trains will run in Push-Pull and it's only a couple of miles from where the OUC spur joins the mainline to the Amtrak station.
Depending on how they enter and exit, that's not much more then the back in move that will be required of some trains arriving at Jacksonville Terminal. The back in move into Tampa Union Station is probably longer.

[thelakelander]

I guess the future will tell.  If I were forced to put money on it, I'm thinking FECI stopping at both OIA and DT has just as much of a chance as them going to both DT Miami and MIA and adding multiple stops between Cocoa and West Palm Beach.  The difference between the Amtrak California/MetroLink example and Sunrail is that Sunrail will be a fledging start up that will need all the riders it can get.  All eyes will be on it and those Central Florida counties ponying up cash for it aren't going to want their investment having to compete for ridership.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, it works like this...

"NOTE 'A' YUKON, FLORIDA
Trains 75 and 76 will stop to receive or discharge passengers from Savannah and points north, and from Orlando and points south thereof. No local traffic handled."

Put in a modern timetable it would simply read, "FEC trains carry no local passengers between OIA, Sligh Avenue Station and Lynx Station in Orlando. Passengers may board at any of these stations to and from Cocoa Beach and all points south. For local services between OIA, Sligh Avenue Station and Lynx Station in Orlando see SUNRAIL."

In this manner both 'railroads' get into the airport and the city center and neither is taking people out of the seats of the other. 

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I understand how it works.  I just don't believe that's going to be the case in this situation for a variety of non-rail operations related reasons.

[yapp1850]

in balitmore amtrak northeast regional and acela express both stop at downtown and the aiport, if you do both stations you get local and the tourism market.

[Ocklawaha]

in balitmore amtrak northeast regional and acela express both stop at downtown and the aiport, if you do both stations you get local and the tourism market.

Exactly Yapp!

I'm a railroad guy, and I have lived in both the Orlando (Heathrow) and Miami (Coral Springs) areas. If I were traveling between these two locations and had to drive out to or from the Orlando International Airport... I'd drive the whole way and wave to the train as it ran past me somewhere down on I-95.



I contend that it would be a fatal error to continue with the idea that the center of the Orlando metro is located south of the 436/528 interchange.