Jacksonville fights to keep fleeing young professionals

[fieldafm]

Jacksonville's problem isn't a compensation issue. 

The figures posted earlier by JaxByDefault would seem to dispute that.

I have two cousins that live in NYC and San Francisco, respectively.  I do their finances.  Their gross income is 30% higher than mine.  My disposable income is 40% higher than theirs. 

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the blatantly illegal age discrimination and 50k versus 135k 'example'.   

graphic design, video production

That's an industry(GD) that I described above... a grind with a traditionally high rate of burning out.  If you are into video production (I was once a partner in a NorCal video production company focusing on action sports), then yes... Jax(and a lot of places) isn't the place you'll need to be.  No arguments there. 

Look, I agree that there certainly IS a VERY SERIOUS problem.  But I don't agree that compensation(when compared to overall cost of living) is a serious problem.  There's an interesting article that the Atlantic did that compares 'would you be better off financially somewhere else' which is a good read.  QOL and a stifing environment very much are major problems here however. 

[copperfiend]

Jacksonville's problem isn't a compensation issue. 

The figures posted earlier by JaxByDefault would seem to dispute that.

I have two cousins that live in NYC and San Francisco, respectively.  I do their finances.  Their gross income is 30% higher than mine.  My disposable income is 40% higher than theirs. 

If you're a homeowner, it would depend on when you purchased also. Buying in 2005-2008 vs. buying in 2011-2012 could be a monthly difference of a few hundred dollars of disposable income.

[finehoe]

Even if your cousins situation is somehow applicable to fresh-out-of-school young professionals, I suspect that the great majority of recent grads when mulling job offers don't think in terms of gross income vs. disposable income.  If they receive an offer in city X that is 15% above what they're offered in city Y, my guess is that city X is likely to be their choice, even if they "know" the cost of living is lower in city Y.  That's just the way young people tend to think.

[fieldafm]

Even if your cousins situation is somehow applicable to fresh-out-of-school young professionals, I suspect that the great majority of recent grads when mulling job offers don't think in terms of gross income vs. disposable income.  If they receive an offer in city X that is 15% above what they're offered in city Y, my guess is that city X is likely to be their choice, even if they "know" the cost of living is lower in city Y.  That's just the way young people tend to think.

So in your example, if you just graduated and was offered a job in Jacksonville for $58,000/yr doing IT work for a financial services company or $47,000 a year working for a tech company in San Francisco that was funded by a large VC firm where you would potentially meet a variety of highly creative contacts in your chosen field and get to experience a unique urban environment that is nothing like Jacksonville... that you would pick Jacksonville b/c you're getting paid 19% more?

[thelakelander]

^If that were my options, I'd be in Fisherman's Wharf eating lunch right now.

[finehoe]

... that you would pick Jacksonville b/c you're getting paid 19% more?

If I was fresh out of school and groaning under tens of thousands of dollars of student loans, it would certainly make me think hard about the choice. 

Besides, as was said earlier, it is foolish to compare Jacksonville to San Francisco or New York.  The real question is would this hypothetical young professional choose Jacksonville over Charlotte, Memphis, Austin, Richmond, Louisville, Nashville, etc. if he/she was offered 19% more.

[fieldafm]

... that you would pick Jacksonville b/c you're getting paid 19% more?

If I was fresh out of school and groaning under tens of thousands of dollars of student loans, it would certainly make me think hard about the choice. 

Besides, as was said earlier, it is foolish to compare Jacksonville to San Francisco or New York.  The real question is would this hypothetical young professional choose Jacksonville over Charlotte, Memphis, Austin, Richmond, Louisville, Nashville, etc. if he/she was offered 19% more.

Under those examples, you'd work a mind-numbing IT job maintaing a database that processes title requests at a large financial service company versus creating innovative analytic software at say Digby in Austin surrounded by tech startups, major VC firms and tons of highly educated young people?

[Anti redneck]

Look, it's plain simple. Want to keep young professionals in Jacksonville? Make it interesting to live in! Why can't this concept be grasped? Think about it. "Oh, please stay! We have nothing to offer you, but we want you to stay." Sounds ridiculous, right? Brown is even talking about reviving downtown? Something that a creative, young professional could help at right there! Why can't anyone in Jacksonville grasp this concept?

[fsquid]

I"d be in Austin.

[Purplebike]

I (Chamblin's Uptown) have been thinking about beginning a process of gradually opening till nine on additional evenings, other than only on Wednesdays, as has been our schedule for four years.  The candidates for opening another night seem to be Fridays and Saturdays.  Some have suggested Friday, some Saturday.

Anyone suggest which?  And the reason for suggesting which?  Or would another night be better?

Obviously if we had some neighbors in the area who also opened in the evenings, it would be better for us.  Thank goodness we have La Cena.  The library opens until six on Fridays and Saturdays, and until eight from Monday thru Thursday.  If there were more people living in the downtown area, I believe we would do better in the evenings.  It's a situation wherein we are ready to expand our hours, doing shift work, but we must do so without excessive losses while cultivating a nighttime following.

Ron, you already know how I feel about you all staying open later! I totally understand the benefits and burdens of you doing so, though. I understand that more needs to be going on downtown, in order for you to justify staying open later--otherwise, there might not be enough foot traffic to sustain the later hours. So...how can we get more businesses downtown, that cater to all kinds? That of course is one of the main questions at stake here.

In *my* version of a perfect world, Chamblins would also have a location in Riverside! The old Fuel space maybe!

Well, in any case, I'll be downtown hanging with you guys this weekend, doing my work in the cafe, during the days. Like I usually do!

[Purplebike]

I'm a single young-ish professional, who doesn't want to party all the time (sometimes, though!). I wish there were more late night bookstores, late night coffee shops, that kind of thing. I'm not complaining, though, I make do. Still, what I wouldn't give for an independent owned coffee shop and bookstore that stayed open super late...where us night owls who don't necessarily want to hang out at bars all the time, could go on weekend nights. Thank goodness for Bold Bean's later hours, but wouldn't it be great if there were a handful of such options?

We already had and ignored uncommon grounds.  Any more ideas?

Good question. Like Ron (Chamblin) said (and I'm paraphrasing here), consistent foot traffic is required to sustain a late night coffee shop / bookstore. I think that may be one of the reasons why Common Grounds didn't make it for the long haul. It was sort of tucked off to the side, off the square.

I think the old Fuel space should be resurrected as a late night coffee shop. It's big and potentially sprawling enough to be able to accommodate all the different kinds of people that would probably want to take advantage of it: hipsters, professionals of all ages, and any combination thereof. A late night place has to offer food, too. That's one of the downfalls of Bold Bean (one of the only ones I can think of, aside from the fact that it's pretty small, seating quickly fills up).

In short, a late night place right in Five Points, or right in the middle of the King Street district. OOooh, I think that empty space on the corner of King and College would make a great late night coffee shop!

Your thoughts?

[Captain Zissou]

In short, a late night place right in Five Points, or right in the middle of the King Street district. OOooh, I think that empty space on the corner of King and College would make a great late night coffee shop!

What about 5 points Coffee and Spice?

[JFman00]

One thing I've noticed here is that there's a bit of a "pay to play" model in a lot of social/networking/educational organizations out there. Events put together by organizations like the Cultural Council of Jacksonville, the World Affairs Council of Jacksonville and RAP come off to me as fundraising gatherings for rich socialites/business types. When I interned with the World Affairs Council of New Orleans, I'd say 75% of our events were free or BYOB (free lectures in conjunction with the universities or social mixers) with the remainder being for fundraising. Here the ratio seems flipped, at least with the event announcements I've seen. With this kind of environment, it feels difficult to get involved with those segments of the community as a newcomer to the city.

[cityimrov]

Jacksonville's problem isn't a compensation issue. 

The figures posted earlier by JaxByDefault would seem to dispute that.

I have two cousins that live in NYC and San Francisco, respectively.  I do their finances.  Their gross income is 30% higher than mine.  My disposable income is 40% higher than theirs. 

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the blatantly illegal age discrimination and 50k versus 135k 'example'.   

graphic design, video production

That's an industry(GD) that I described above... a grind with a traditionally high rate of burning out.  If you are into video production (I was once a partner in a NorCal video production company focusing on action sports), then yes... Jax(and a lot of places) isn't the place you'll need to be.  No arguments there. 

Look, I agree that there certainly IS a VERY SERIOUS problem.  But I don't agree that compensation(when compared to overall cost of living) is a serious problem.  There's an interesting article that the Atlantic did that compares 'would you be better off financially somewhere else' which is a good read.  QOL and a stifing environment very much are major problems here however.

Sorry, they didn't say age but more by experience due to years worked which then goes back to age.  There's business out there who feel more comfortable paying more for someone with 20 years experience then they do paying someone with just 2 years experience in the field even when they are a genius. 

Under those examples, you'd work a mind-numbing IT job maintaing a database that processes title requests at a large financial service company versus creating innovative analytic software at say Digby in Austin surrounded by tech startups, major VC firms and tons of highly educated young people?

Don't forget a purpose in life.  Jacksonville offers few of that to the creative class.  At least one third of life is spent at work.  These people want that one third of their life to be something meaningful. 

One thing I've noticed here is that there's a bit of a "pay to play" model in a lot of social/networking/educational organizations out there. Events put together by organizations like the Cultural Council of Jacksonville, the World Affairs Council of Jacksonville and RAP come off to me as fundraising gatherings for rich socialites/business types. When I interned with the World Affairs Council of New Orleans, I'd say 75% of our events were free or BYOB (free lectures in conjunction with the universities or social mixers) with the remainder being for fundraising. Here the ratio seems flipped, at least with the event announcements I've seen. With this kind of environment, it feels difficult to get involved with those segments of the community as a newcomer to the city.

Jacksonville is worried about making a profit.  I worked with similar organizations and they think that the door charge is a good thing.   I tried to convince them otherwise but they wouldn't listen.  If they were in charge of things like the internet, well, let's say every time I visited MetroJacksonville, I would need to enter a credit card number and pay a fee.  It would be like every time I visited downtown, I would need to pay a fee as a privilege of visiting the place. 

Look, it's plain simple. Want to keep young professionals in Jacksonville? Make it interesting to live in! Why can't this concept be grasped? Think about it. "Oh, please stay! We have nothing to offer you, but we want you to stay." Sounds ridiculous, right? Brown is even talking about reviving downtown? Something that a creative, young professional could help at right there! Why can't anyone in Jacksonville grasp this concept?

What do you think the chances are of that actually happening?  Are you sure we shouldn't require them to have 20 or more years experience in urban development? 

But seriously, if this happens, that would give a few young smart professionals a meaningful purpose in their life.  While not a big portion, it would be a good start and a strong signal that Jacksonville is serious about solving this problem.

As a fun exercise, can someone calculate what percentage of young people have power positions (not secretarial or internship staff) of the boards and agencies which run downtown?  Does anyone know if our city actively asks these young professionals to join the them?  No, I don't mean a junior board which has no power but the real one with full voting rights. 

If you offer the smartest young professional who's planning to leave the Chairmanship of the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce, then yes.   That's a strong incentive for them to stay. 

[simms3]

I've tried to stay offline in the past because of my position with the City and now to keep my nose clean; but, this is something I feel strongly about.  Capital is more mobile than it has every been. It's not just mobile regionally or nationally, but globally. Today's young professional is more likely to make a location choice based on lifestyle issues than ever before. It doesn't take much research to figure out they are locating in cities that offer a dynamic urban lifestyle with a variety of mobility choices.

CEOs for Cities published a report they call the Talent Dividend. Their research indicates that for every %1 increase in college attainment there is a $763 increase in per capita income. Some simple math indicates that just striving for average would net 2.5 billion dollars for Duval County annually.  That's a powerful argument for Jacksonville adding a vibrant urban product to it's real estate portfolio.

However, there's more.  This is a group that clearly values education. I leave it to you to discuss whether we provide a market that values education ...

Bill

Great post.  I could see young professionals living in and enjoying life in Riverside, Avondale and San Marco.  Unfortunately transplants new to town are never shown these neighborhoods (instead most realtors automatically bring them to the beach or to a subdivision/gated community).  The city and the individual communities also don't really have the money for necessary upkeep and code enforcement, and as a result even the "nicest" pockets of the city look extremely trashy when compared to nice pockets of similar metros. 

Also, visitors to the city, from business travelers to convention attendees to tourists and vacationers see the following of our city:

1) A great/easy airport
2) A HORRIBLE stretch of 95, no matter which side of town (and add I-10 and basically any major thoroughfare)
3) An absolutely cryptic downtown with no life
4) Pristine suburbs, but nothing different from suburbs elsewhere
5) The beaches, which outside of Atlantic Beach and old PVB are not what I would consider showcase beaches (and most just see Jax Beach, which is iffy at best when compared to other FL beaches)

The city has not learned that its most visible parts are most important for attracting business and people.  Once it gets that down, it has to pay more attention to the neighborhoods surrounding the core which will be more popular for 21st century young professionals and empty nesters (the people the city should attract and look after).

What is equally as bad as crime and blight is complete and utter emptiness.  When the city demolishes buildings in the name of cleaning up or public safety or whatever the reason, it just creates more emptiness, which is absolutely horrible for producing the right image to visitors.

The city also has made too many bad choices of locating ugly government buildings on prime developable riverfront land and then building action centers (such as arena, stadium, convention center, etc) scattered all over the place in empty land areas.  Basically, the city has nearly made too many bad decisions in 50 years to really come back from it, but there is always hope.

And let's not forget that while the top private schools in the city are inexpensive compared to similar product in larger cities where transplants may be relocating from, they are still out of reach for 99%.  AND nobody in their right mind is going to want to start a family and send their kids to a Duval public school (unless they can "win" the lottery and attend Stanton or DA).  Still, education is probably not as dire of a situation as the city's image and policies for growth/development/lack of money for incentives or anything.  Plenty of large cities have horrible public schools, private schools that cost as much as Harvard and still tons of young professionals and young families.