So what's your vision of what Jacksonville could be?

[Tacachale]

What we'd stand to gain with AAA baseball would be a higher profile and a much higher revenue and attendance ceiling. Generally speaking AAA teams make a lot more money than lower level teams, which means more revenue for the city. The Suns top out their league in attendance with about 4-5,000 fans a game. However, some teams are attracting 8, 9, and 10,000 fans a game, and a much higher proportion of them are AAA. Even if they kept the same ticket prices, that's a ton more people and money coming through our downtown 70 nights a year.

And because profit margins on minor league baseball teams are so high (especially in a great sports town like Jax), the jump could be made for little cost to the city beyond perhaps some basic incentives.

I do agree that the Suns have been terrific for Jacksonville and AA is quality baseball, and I'd really hope we could keep the Suns branding. And yes, there are more pressing things to worry about. But I think this is a logical step that would be relatively easy to pull off.

[KenFSU]

I agree with the about hockey. An ECHL team at the Arena would be a good fit for us, if not AHL.

I'd buy season tickets for either on day one.

I lived down in the Fort Myers/Naples area until I was 18, and those Florida Everblades ECHL games were just fantastic. Probably the only minor league team I've seen whose tickets were routinely selling above face value by scalpers outside the arena.

On Triple A baseball, to me, it's taking the logical next step in growing as a baseball city and laying the ground work for a future MLB team in Jacksonville. Sure, the very notion of an MLB team is patently ridiculous right now, but so much can and will change in the next 20 years as the region continues to grow that you just never know. With rumors of MLB eventually adding two more teams, turbulence with the Rays in St. Pete, and several other teams severely underperforming at the box office, there's going to be quite a bit of movement in the next two decades. If we don't start thinking big in the short term, we're going to get caught with our pants down in the long term. On a side note, how incredible would a waterfront PNC/Pac Bell style baseball park look on the river?

[Tacachale]

Whatever happened to the Jacksonville Lizard Kings...?!

The Lizard Kings played in the old Coliseum. They put in four good years but were losing money and said they didn't think they could make it work in the aging Coliseum. They suspended operations in 2000 in anticipation of the current Arena being built.

Unlike most minor league sports teams who "suspend operations", the Lizard Kings actually stayed active in the league and apparently did intend to return. However, in 2002 they got into a bidding war with the group that became the Jacksonville Barracudas over a lease at the Arena. In the end the Barracudas won the agreement and started play in 2002, even though it meant playing a full year in the much derided Coliseum.

In retrospect it's probably too bad it happened that way, since the Lizard Kings were in a much more stable league (the ECHL). The Barracudas ended up jumping leagues twice, never having great finances, and ultimately fell into a situation that probably wasn't a great fit for such a large (and expensive) arena in a city of this size.

I've always felt that Jacksonville is a fertile hockey market that's just had bad luck with its franchises.

[fsquid]

JAX is way too small for a MLB franchise.  You have to draw a 20k for 81 home dates.  With the way this metro is spread out, there is no way you are going to be able to draw that for a Tues. night matchup against the Royals.

A Stadium open to the River would be very cool.

No clue if a AAA team "raises the profile" of the city.  Can't say I think of Rochester, Pawtucket, and Norfolk more highly because they have AAA teams.

[blandman]

Agree with some of the previous posters...AA is plenty good.  Between 1994-96, when the Suns were still affiliated with the Mariners I saw Edgar Martinez rehab, Carlos Delgado come through with the Blue Jays for two years, and was at Alex Rodriguez's last minor league game (it was a rainout, but he hung around with his family/friends outside the locker room after he found out he'd been called up).  I think there are bigger things to focus on than upgrading from AA to AAA-baseball.

[blandman]

how incredible would a waterfront PNC/Pac Bell style baseball park look on the river?

Isn't the current stadium pretty new?

[Adam W]

^We should pursue AAA baseball because we're an appropriately sized city, have a proven history of supporting minor league baseball, and, significantly, we've already got a AAA stadium. True, it would be tricky to land a team for several reasons, but it could be done pretty quickly if we prioritize it. I'd hope we could keep the Suns name though.

I agree with the about hockey. An ECHL team at the Arena would be a good fit for us, if not AHL.

I also think we'd make a good market for pro soccer, at least in the second or third tier leagues. I'd also like to see UNF and JU basketball become more competitive and a bigger draw for the community.

Pro soccer is a good idea. There are a lot of soccer fans in Jax and I think their numbers will grow. They could play in a smaller stadium and not have to play in a mostly-empty Gator Bowl.

In the early 80's Jax had the Tea Men.  The also had the Cyclones in the 90's.

Yeah, I used to go to Tea Men games. They weren't that popular, but the NASL was on its last legs by that time anyway. Nowadays, I think Jax could support a lower-league pro team (not a first tier team like the Tea Men).

[blizz01]

Officially hijacked - we could start a whole new baseball thread, really.  BTW, I saw Michael Jordan play when he cam through town years ago.  Anyone old enough to remember Tug McGraw or Nolan Ryan?  OR, Hank Aaron for that matter (Jacksonville Braves?)?

[KenFSU]

how incredible would a waterfront PNC/Pac Bell style baseball park look on the river?

Isn't the current stadium pretty new?

Yes, less than ten years old and quite nice.

I was talking long-term hypothetical, if Jax ever managed to land an MLB team.

Look at average MLB home attendance last year. 15 of the 30 teams averaged fewer than 27,000 a game, and three teams averaged less than 19,000 a game. These numbers are only going to decline. Give it 20 years, build a cozy retro 27,000 to 30,000 seat riverfront ballpark, price tickets in the same range as the Rays and Marlins, and MLB baseball could just work in Jacksonville. That kind of foot traffic 81 days a year would almost single handedly revitalize that portion of a city's downtown (see: Target Field). A pipe dream for now, but that doesn't mean it's unattainable in our lifetimes.

[blizz01]

Mayor Brown has indicated that he's like to see an NBA franchise in JAX - I'm not convinced that it could survive with the game frequency & ticket prices - but, if the AFL can get ~13,000+ with that product, who knows....Just get us in the International Soccer/MLS mix & I'd be happy.

[Anti redneck]

MLB or NBA, one of the additions would be nice. It could be supported if more people moved here. More people would move here if there was more opportunity here. Anywho, blizz, what is your vision of the city?

[blizz01]

Anywho, blizz, what is your vision of the city?

Haha - he're my input from a few days ago...

I find it hard to be bored in this city - & I've never been considered a simpleton.  You really aren't trying hard enough if you feel that there's nothing to do.  I can spend a day in ANY quadrant of North Florida & get into something.  There are certainly pockets (& events) in Jacksonville that wouldn't go unnoticed in other major cities - we tend to take them for granted.  There's been no shortage of concerts or festivals YTD - I swear every week there seems to be something happening at one or more venues (including Ponte Vedra & St. Aug amphitheatre).  I contend that you could drop all of (charming) Avondale into another metro area & it would/could be just as - if not more, of a destination.  I really believe that Mr. Khan is going to bring a strong influence beyond football ownership as already evidenced in his statements & immediate involvement (albeit limited) downtown.  I would also like to see a marketing push to ram the Jags down everyone's throats - whether in the airport, or down I-95.  I have always felt that we don't advertise the obvious enough when & where necessary.  Everyone knows that Disney is down in Orlando, but they still show up on our billboards.  Sensationalize a road trip from downtown to Fernandina - a beautiful drive including the Mayport Ferry (for years to come, let's hope).  Leverage St. Augustine - it's a top 5 (or 3 in some lists) tourist destination in Florida - hard to get there without passing through JAX for most - they're watching our broadcasts on network television down there too!  Get the Amtrak routes in order; offer more (any)international flights out of JIA (especially to the Car ribbean); extend the Skyway - at least one more time to the Sports Complex; put a big neon arrow on the Fuller Warren advertising RAM; pound your chest about the local breweries/tours offered (including A/B); offer river taxi service or a riverboat cruise from downtown to our "above average" zoo; get excited about our beaches & the cool vibe that Jax Beach has to offer;  embrace (not shun) the multitude of shopping/dining options @ SJTC; put a historical marker on every remaining building of significance downtown reflecting on any & all notable details; keep the momentum going with downtown nightlife....Oh yeah, bring football to UNF.                     

[Anti redneck]

Anywho, blizz, what is your vision of the city?

Haha - he're my input from a few days ago...

I find it hard to be bored in this city - & I've never been considered a simpleton.  You really aren't trying hard enough if you feel that there's nothing to do.  I can spend a day in ANY quadrant of North Florida & get into something.  There are certainly pockets (& events) in Jacksonville that wouldn't go unnoticed in other major cities - we tend to take them for granted.  There's been no shortage of concerts or festivals YTD - I swear every week there seems to be something happening at one or more venues (including Ponte Vedra & St. Aug amphitheatre).  I contend that you could drop all of (charming) Avondale into another metro area & it would/could be just as - if not more, of a destination.  I really believe that Mr. Khan is going to bring a strong influence beyond football ownership as already evidenced in his statements & immediate involvement (albeit limited) downtown.  I would also like to see a marketing push to ram the Jags down everyone's throats - whether in the airport, or down I-95.  I have always felt that we don't advertise the obvious enough when & where necessary.  Everyone knows that Disney is down in Orlando, but they still show up on our billboards.  Sensationalize a road trip from downtown to Fernandina - a beautiful drive including the Mayport Ferry (for years to come, let's hope).  Leverage St. Augustine - it's a top 5 (or 3 in some lists) tourist destination in Florida - hard to get there without passing through JAX for most - they're watching our broadcasts on network television down there too!  Get the Amtrak routes in order; offer more (any)international flights out of JIA (especially to the Car ribbean); extend the Skyway - at least one more time to the Sports Complex; put a big neon arrow on the Fuller Warren advertising RAM; pound your chest about the local breweries/tours offered (including A/B); offer river taxi service or a riverboat cruise from downtown to our "above average" zoo; get excited about our beaches & the cool vibe that Jax Beach has to offer;  embrace (not shun) the multitude of shopping/dining options @ SJTC; put a historical marker on every remaining building of significance downtown reflecting on any & all notable details; keep the momentum going with downtown nightlife....Oh yeah, bring football to UNF.                     

Every city has a "SJTC", if not 2 or 3. It's nothing new. How do you attract people to the beaches? How do you incorporate on the beaches? How do you advertise the zoo to visitors? If visitors are going to St. Auggie from South Florida, they don't have to even look at Jax. International flights, skyway extension, +2. Airport/JTA needs to do something about that. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with RAM. What concerts have come through? What types of music? Me personally, I like the hard stuff. Anything for me? How do you promote downtown nightlife? How do you incorporate on it? Bring football to UNF, +1 on that.

[Anti redneck]

I am with Simms in believing that the market will tell you how your city is doing.  In cities all across the country you see urban infill developments in cities both larger and smaller than Jax.  Gainesville is adding over 1,000+ multi-family units within a half mile of their downtown.  In atlanta, you couldn't go a quarter mile without seeing a new development.  Jacksonville has no significant development going on near the core, and that speaks to the vibrancy of our local market.  Thousands of units are going in near 9A and Baymeadows.  They actually clear cut another 100+ acres to do so, when a mile to the north there is already a gridded, platted, leveled, vacant development site that is about 70 acres. 

The market doesn't see urban jacksonville as a viable option for development.  That is reflective of our restrictive policies, auto-centric mentality, lack of a creative class, and relatively small young professional class.  We need to change these poisonous conditions and then the developments will happen automatically.  In this day and age, the core should be stealing residents from the 'burbs. That is what is happening all over the country.  In Jax, the opposite is still happening like it's 2003.

I concur this. Let's see urban core make some strides. From the pictures of beach construction updates, things are looking nice out there. The urban core could take some lessons.

[simms3]

^^^Nobody should take lessons from the beach, that is Jacksonville Beach.  The good beach example for an urban beach is obviously Miami Beach and the good example for a planned, semi-urban beach is Seaside.  Atlantic Beach to me is much more impressive than Jacksonville Beach, even though it is much smaller.  I think Jax Beach is tacky, dirty, crimey (perception), poor and full of uneducated people who don't work professional jobs.  Atlantic Beach is mixed-income, but has a much better/nicer "facade", is more pedestrian/bike friendly, and while there are all income levels, it seems more like the people are better educated and have better jobs.

Now on to Jax...my personal vision does not include fixed-rail transit for at least 10 years.  I may be blasted for this, but the city doesn't even have the basics down or the mentality or really even the density to make it work.  Cities like Seattle and Minneapolis are some of the densest in the country, and highly successful urban cities, and they have gotten by with 3-4 million people and no trains.  Kansas City has far denser neighborhoods than Jacksonville and is far more vibrant, and larger, and it functions just fine without trains.

Trains are good, but the people and the city have to want and to need the trains.  Just having trains won't bring companies to Jacksonville and won't automatically provide the demand for infill.  First you have to have a pool of people who want to be downtown and in the core, with or without trains.  Then you have to have enough of a central commuting pattern whereby there is actual gridlock enough to warrant rush hour demand for trains and a political demand for the cost of trains.

There are just too many things Jacksonville should tackle first.  There need to be more "destinations."  There needs to be more of an energy.  Most of what makes Charlotte work is the energy of its leadership and the people.  Outside of Uptown and the South End, it is not particularly dense, even around the LYNX.  But, Uptown is where everyone goes to work, eat, play.  It's "the" place to be.  Not only that, there is twice as much rentable square feet there, and occupancy is better than Jax, AND there are thousands of residents living in tons of new highrises and low-rise communities.

IF downtown can figure its self out, attract office tenants, build more office space and get a sizable working population, AND we create more destinations like a train station to tie to, a new convention center, a waterfront park, AND there is a demand to live downtown or close by and infill starts occuring along the riverfronts and in Lavilla/Brooklyn/Springfield, then trains might be feasible and worth it.

It's totally fine otherwise to have highly individual neighborhoods that are popular in their own right.  And by popular I mean there is actually a good amount of infill going on.  Riverside might be popular for Jax, but look at condo sales and new construction.  Nobody wants to move there, even with the already highly discounted prices.  In Springfield it's impossible to build something new (or so it seems), and believe me, if Riverside ain't booming there is no way in hell Springfield is going to be on the UP.

I think money needs to be spent on infrastructure for the rail yards and the port (not necessarily deepening, but everything else).  Money DEFINITELY needs to be spent on image.  Advertising is a component, but so is beautifying the horrifying drive in from JIA which is the last thing out of town visitors need to see.  Also -  landscaping goes a long way.  It literally "looks" like the city is in poorhouse, and I can tell you that from an aesthetic perspective Riverside-Avondale-Ortega look like they are in worse shape than they were 5 years ago, and these are supposed to be the crown jewels of the inner areas.

A LOT of the wealthy in Ortega/Avondale/San Marco moved to the beach in this down economy, or at least bought houses there to live (they won't come off their prices on the river intown - and it's sad that nobody even values these 7,000 sf 1920s riverfront mansions with yards at more than $2M, where they would sell for at least twice that in almost any other 1M+ metro).

My vision for Jax is for city leaders and local business leaders find a way to bring the city into the 21st century and start competing for quality jobs and for college educated professionals under the age of 35.  Then my vision may change to trains and professional sports teams, etc.