Cities keep squandering money on hotels and meeting facilities

[ChriswUfGator]

What were the first two times that Jacksonville built a Convention Center?  Prime Osborn is the only one I am familiar with. 

The Coliseum, the Jacksonville Beach Convention Center, the Prime Osborne, and now we're going for #4...

[tufsu1]

Lake, you're presupposing that the convention center would actually bring any visitors.

so, you're suggesting that a new convention center would not bring ANY new visitors to downtown?

Indeed, that is exactly what I'm suggesting.

Thank You.  We are all now know exactly where you stand.

[ChriswUfGator]

While in Houston last week, i stayed a couple of blocks from their convention center. I arrived the last day of some petroleum convention. While talking to a bartender at the McCormick and Schmicks in downtown, he was telling me how busy they had been all week because of the convention. I am sure his pockets were happy.

If you are just going by visitor numbers in random other cities, then why not build a giant Mosque?

It works for Mecca.

[simms3]

Getting back to topic here - the topic of convention centers, convention hotels and the convention business - there are contexts and the concept of relativity here.

Jacksonville has never had a real convention center.  We had a colisseum, and now we have an old leaky train station with a small exhibition hall attached.  From my perspective, I have had the opportunity firsthand over the last 6 years to see how the convention industry can bring about economic development and can fill city coffers.  I live in arguably one of the top 3 - 5 convention cities depending on how you look at it and depending on the year.  The only thing holding my downtown up is the convention business.  There is a constant buzz of activity in downtown, which feeds many thousands of hotel rooms, many many restaurants, bars, clubs, and tourist services/retailers.  Of course there still aren't enough residents to support retail and services for residents, but there are more conventioneers that stay within a 10 block radius each year than people who pass through your average 1 million person metro.

Now relating this to Jacksonville, we are never going to be that.  Boston is never going to be that no matter how hard they try.  They missed that ball decades ago.  Instead, Jacksonville should AT LEAST just get on the same level as Hartford, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, etc etc.  We don't need but 150,000-200,000 SF of exhibition space under one roof, and perhaps another 100,000 SF of additional meeting rooms, and putting this next to the Hyatt, which already has ~125,000 SF of meeting space and you have yourself a nice convention center that is good for at least 75% of conventions.  What we have now is really not good for any conventions.

On top of this, no city-funded hotel is necessary as we'll have 966 keys attached (though the Adams Mark was subsidized - now 15 years ago).  You have the waterfront right there, which has been made over in a decent fashion.  You have some nearby bars and restaurants.  You're downtown, so even if there is "nothing" to do downtown, your average tourist will just enjoy walking around.  That's what they do.  They'll enjoy the bridges and the waterfront.  The city would be able to showcase itself to a lot more people - and they will see the actual city and the river and the natural beauty rather than the Southside.

I can promise you the current situation is that most people who visit Jacksonville do not see a nice or interesting side that makes them think more than once about the city.  From the airport they come straight through the ghetto, pass a ton of evangelical billboards and rundown weedy and seedy projects and houses, etc.  Either this or they come down 9A straight to the southside and they never see "town."  This was the case when we got "raving" reviews by CNN when the city hosted the Republican debate this year.  Their comments were positive towards the airport, the smooth/new highways, and the cleanliness of the suburbs.  Goody.  Contrast that to the raving reviews downtown Indy got over the Superbowl.  We can at least shoot for Indy style comments rather than "great pristine suburbs."

Now, with just an average convention center downtown on city-owned land already pre-attached to a huge convention hotel, the added people will support local downtown businesses.  The added people will add a level of vibrancy.  Some more businesses will open downtown to catch some increased demand.  Finally some locals will be drawn to one of these conventions and will see the changes downtown.  Business leaders from around the country/world will see a more impressive downtown.  And locals who come downtown for events will also see a positive change.  You may see some people who deep down would like to live downtown but hadn't prior to this because of the dead vibe reconsider.

Nothing negative could come of this, and in fact, built to the right size for Jacksonville, it won't sit empty.

On a final note - the city itself may currently be dull and may not be billed as a city interesting to most people, BUT it's undeniable that the waterfront is pretty, the setting is unique, the airport is fast, cheap, and easy, and the weather is much better than 90% of the rest of the country.  These factors in addition to having a substantial state of the art facility that can accomodate them and one that is attached to a large hotel would be enough to convince conventions to come to town and bring all those conventioneers with them.

Please someone come up with a better argument why the city should not seriously consider this.

[thelakelander]

Lake, you're presupposing that the convention center would actually bring any visitors. The whole point of the article being discussed is that this presupposition, which equals the typical "build it and they will come" mentality associated with so many boondoggles, is a false promise.

Nope, I'm not presupposing anything.  What I'm saying is you can pick up the current center with its current events, place it  next to the Hyatt and Bay Street and those businesses would economically benefit from the pedestrian scale connectivity that the current site does not allow.  All the rest of the stuff you keep mentioning is irrelevant to this point about pedestrian scale connectivity and clustering.

If you build the biggest convention center the world has ever seen, we still are never going to be a player in that business. The building is not why people host conventions in Las Vegas, they go other places because those places have things that we don't have. Like stuff to do around the facility, for starters.

You're describing a benefit of connectivity.  Placing complementing uses together within a compact setting works.  This theory is evident with Park & King, San Marco Square, SJTC, Avenues Mall, Memorial Park, and even AB's brewery complex.  Attempting to relate the concept of pedestrian scale connectivity to market demands and fiscal feasibility for a convention center is a waste.  These two issues are apples and oranges.

Yes you are. Even this reply presupposes that there will be any convention business to benefit from clustering. There won't.

We'll have the same one or two local shows combined with a smattering of church luncheons and PTA meeting that we have now. The only difference will be the $100mm we'll be missing. Assuming it actually gets built for that, a slim prospect if the courthouse is any indication. But again, the building doesn't magically create a business, and the building is the last of our problems with why we aren't a competitor in that business. None of the reasons people go to Las Vegas instead of Jacksonville will be fixed by building a new convention center. It's just another boondoggle.

The clustering of uses has nothing to do with this continued focus on the validity of the convention industry.  They are two separate issues.  I don't see why you're trying to tie them together.  It really isn't that complicated to understand that the more density you have in a compact pedestrian scale setting, the more foot traffic, which equates to better visibility and economic opportunity for adjacent storefronts.  What I'm describing works with a convention center, department store, restaurants, movie theater, retail, art galleries, etc.

[ChriswUfGator]

But people actually go to department stores, restaurants, theaters, etc. There is demand for that. There is no demand here for a convention center. There are two considerations here, a building, and a business. That's why I'm only half-joking when I say why not throw in a uranium mine and a snow removal company. Maybe a buggy whip factory while we're at it?

We missed the boat on being even a small-sized convention destination decades ago, at this point we're just throwing good money after bad. For literally the fourth time. And about this "we've never had a REAL convention center that could attract (fill in the blank)" that's the same argument that's been made each of the three times we've already tried this. The building(s) are not why it's not working, that's the least of our problems.

Nobody is going to be switching their convention from Las Vegas or Orlando to Jacksonville just because it can fit in the building. We lack pretty much every single amenity that would make people want to do that. We'd be much much better off using the same money to seed organic growth downtown and turning the land over to private (non-residential) developers. The bottom line is about attracting visitors, and a vibrant urban scene is the key to that. Conventions don't cut the mustard, you want people permanently living, working, and shopping down there, not just visiting for two days and leaving. That isn't going to do what needs to be done. That, and nobody will actually come to the convention center anyway.

[tufsu1]

But people actually go to department stores, restaurants, theaters, etc. There is demand for that. There is no demand here for a convention center.

We know...nobody will go to a convention center.

Ignore the thousands that show up now at the size-limited Prime Osborn for things like the car show, boat show, home & patio show, etc...and the potential business that those attendees could provide for a nearby cluster of retail/restaurants.

According to the JEDC/DVI 2010 State of Downtown Report, there were 12.5 million visits to downtown....more specifically -

Jacksonville Landing - 4 million
Everbank Field - 825,000
Baseball grounds - 500,000
Arena - 450,000
Expo Center (at the Fairgrounds) - 400,000
Florida Theate, TUPAC, museumks (all together) - 660,000
Main Library - 883,000
Metro Park and Riverwalks - 290,000
RAM - 500,000

and then there's all the special downtown events (Jazz Fest, Art Walk, fireworks, etc.) which drew over 1.6 million people.

and on that same page of information, the City and SMG estimate that 164,000 people attended events at the Prime Osborn Convention Center in 2010.

[ChriswUfGator]

But people actually go to department stores, restaurants, theaters, etc. There is demand for that. There is no demand here for a convention center.

We know...nobody will go to a convention center.

Ignore the thousands that show up now at the size-limited Prime Osborn for things like the car show, boat show, home & patio show, etc...and the potential business that those attendees could provide for a nearby cluster of retail/restaurants.

You already got the pimp-hand on this one when we were discussing the same issue last year, and I posted the visitor counts for a few retailers. The annual visitor impact of our handful of mostly local/regional events isn't even equivalent to one half of one Walgreens. Except the Walgreens takes no public money to build, let alone what this thing would cost. A single Walmart gets more visitors in a day than the convention center does in a year.

The money would be FAR better spent attracting a Publix, or really any other retail, together with affordable housing, downtown. Even in terms of the rosiest of rosy economic predictions, the thing would have the economic impact of like 2 days' operation of a single Walmart. Pardon me for being unimpressed, but I don't think that's the best use of what will inevitably wind up being $100mm+.

[tufsu1]

^ I added to my response..,.you may want to check it out again.

btw, are you now admitting that a convention center would attract some people?

[ChriswUfGator]

so wait, do you now admit that a convention center would attract some people?

No new people, just the same ones it attracts now.

[ChriswUfGator]

But people actually go to department stores, restaurants, theaters, etc. There is demand for that. There is no demand here for a convention center.

We know...nobody will go to a convention center.

Ignore the thousands that show up now at the size-limited Prime Osborn for things like the car show, boat show, home & patio show, etc...and the potential business that those attendees could provide for a nearby cluster of retail/restaurants.

According to the JEDC/DVI 2010 State of Downtown Report, there were 12.5 million visits to downtown....more specifically -

Jacksonville Landing - 4 million
Everbank Field - 825,000
Baseball grounds - 500,000
Arena - 450,000
Expo Center (at the Fairgrounds) - 400,000
Florida Theate, TUPAC, museumks (all together) - 660,000
Main Library - 883,000
Metro Park and Riverwalks - 290,000
RAM - 500,000

and then there's all the special downtown events (Jazz Fest, Art Walk, fireworks, etc.) which drew over 1.6 million people.

and on that same page of information, the City and SMG estimate that 164,000 people attended events at the Prime Osborn Convention Center in 2010.

Oh yes, DVI, the same source that claimed up until late last year that there were 50k people working on the northbank.

The height of a credible source, clearly.

As is pretty clearly shown by these figures. LMFAO, 4mm visitors to the Landing, REALLY?  The main library almost a MILLION visitors? WTF? This is priceless. Tufsu, please post the report where you got that from (so I can go about shredding it). I suspect Stephen will want a bite at this apple too. RAM isn't even in downtown, LOL! DVI cracks me up...

[peestandingup]

^ I added to my response..,.you may want to check it out again.

btw, are you now admitting that a convention center would attract some people?

The argument isn't whether not it attracks people, but if it helps make downtown a better environment for businesses & residents in general. So far it doesn't seem to. Every week can't be a Jazz Fest, big car show or fireworks display. You're still left with 300 days outta the year where downtown is dead as a door nail & no residents.

[tufsu1]

The argument isn't whether not it attracks people, but if it helps make downtown a better environment for businesses & residents in general. So far it doesn't seem to. Every week can't be a Jazz Fest, big car show or fireworks display. You're still left with 300 days outta the year where downtown is dead as a door nail & no residents.

which is precisely why we need an additional kick start....as you'll note from simms post above, downtown Atlanta is alive at night and on weekends primarily because of the concvention and visitor business....I saw that first hand last month.....and while we'll never be at the size of Atlanta in this regard (which is a good thing) the evidence is already there that Bay Street and the Landing do better when there are meetings at the Hyatt.

now, I'm with Lakelander....there are better things to spend $100+ million on than a convention center....but there's virtually no denying that relocating the convention center to the core will inject some additional life into that part of downtown.

and as for the JEDC/DVI report, it can be found here

http://www.coj.net/departments/jacksonville-economic-development-commission/downtown-development.aspx

[thelakelander]

But people actually go to department stores, restaurants, theaters, etc. There is demand for that. There is no demand here for a convention center. There are two considerations here, a building, and a business. That's why I'm only half-joking when I say why not throw in a uranium mine and a snow removal company. Maybe a buggy whip factory while we're at it?

People actually do go convention centers, just not as much to make them directly profitable or open 24/7, if that's your goal for investing in them.  I've even gone to a couple at the Prime Osborn.  However, the feasibility of a convention center in Jacksonville is a different discussion from my point on that clustering complementing uses at the pedestrian scale would be economically beneficial for adjacent businesses.  Btw, a buggy whip factory would be pretty cool!

We missed the boat on being even a small-sized convention destination decades ago, at this point we're just throwing good money after bad. For literally the fourth time. And about this "we've never had a REAL convention center that could attract (fill in the blank)" that's the same argument that's been made each of the three times we've already tried this. The building(s) are not why it's not working, that's the least of our problems.

Nobody is going to be switching their convention from Las Vegas or Orlando to Jacksonville just because it can fit in the building. We lack pretty much every single amenity that would make people want to do that. We'd be much much better off using the same money to seed organic growth downtown and turning the land over to private (non-residential) developers. The bottom line is about attracting visitors, and a vibrant urban scene is the key to that. Conventions don't cut the mustard, you want people permanently living, working, and shopping down there, not just visiting for two days and leaving. That isn't going to do what needs to be done. That, and nobody will actually come to the convention center anyway.

This has nothing to do with what I was talking about (pedestrian scale connectivity).  I think you're confusing my posts with some other comments in this thread.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Based on the numbers, 165,000 people is not a lot.  Sure, if the convention center was within walking distance of Bay St. & the Landing, that's 165k more people on the street in a semi-clustered environment, but really?

Iif I'm reading this correctly - yes.  if we move the CC downtown, we automatically increase foot traffic for DT businesses.  Our ROI for a $100M CC with only 165k visitors a year would be horrendous.  There's no guarantee that a new CC would bring in new or more guests.

Why build it?  Why waste the $$$$?  What's the incentive to build it?