Skyway on the Move: An exclusive thread on EXPANSION and IMPROVEMENT - PART 2

[thelakelander]

^Going east, where would you terminate it?

[PhanLord]

I would end skyway in Arena/Baseball grounds area

and add streetcar going a more northern route down duval st (as northern east/west connector)
hopefully going west all the way to farmers market or through "subway" to stockton/kings

No clue how doable that would be

what I'm wondering why isn't there a push a regional rail connections

jax - Fernandina, jax - Gainesville, jax - St Augustine (Daytona)

i think tracks are already there and to me its just too logical not to do it

[thelakelander]

There is a push for regional rail.  The project that appears to be on its way in the short term is the Amtrak/FEC Flagler Line.  It will connect Jacksonville with Miami, along Florida's East Coast.  St. Augustine will be one of the stops.  This could happen as soon as 2014/15.



http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jan-amtrak-flagler-line-will-happen

http://m.tcpalm.com/news/2012/jan/05/amtrak-liability-protection-needed-before-could/

Commuter rail is also in the long term works locally.  Nassau County would be the terminating stop along the north corridor.  However, this is still a decade away.



http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Rail/

[PhanLord]

just sucks that is all moving so slow.
my thought is that connecting all urban areas 1 1/2 to 2 hours train ride with jax would help
with getting funding for all projects downtown for which new infrastructure needs to be built,
and will show the need for those.
(well need it there anyway but i guess some people just need more reasons)

back to skyway

being that skyway is more expensive and current layout doesn't really give us opportunity to build looping lines
like miami has , having skyway as southern east west connector and streetcar as northern (central) east west connector would give us huge flexibility of moving from one area to another

[Jdog]

Yes to streetcar (imagine if we started there from the beginning)...

But regarding the convention center location next door to the Hyatt (it sounds pretty much a foregone conclusion to me)...would you not be unhappy as a Southbank  hotel owner (heck even the Omni) if you now become disconnected from a new, possibly successful, busy, convention center since the Skyway stubs at Central Station? 

[dougskiles]

Streetcar is a better east-west solution than skyway expansion to the sports complex (or new convention center) IMO.  If you are at a Southbank hotel then you're most likely going to have to change trains regardless because you just came across the river on the north-south line.  So why not ride the escalator down and hop on a streetcar?  With signaling priority, the streetcars can move through downtown with very little delay.

But, sometimes I think we forgot that the point of these systems is not necessarily to get around FASTER than a car, but to make it possible to get around WITHOUT a car.

[thelakelander]

Bingo!  I think these quotes from an article tufsu1 posted about Norfolk's new LRT sums up what fixed transit connectivity will do for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.

The boon has continued. Sales at her store for December and January, which are usually slower months, have jumped 13 percent to 14 percent from a year earlier. Riley estimates that light rail has added as much as $1,000 in sales on some days, particularly at the end of the week, when people ride The Tide to restaurants and bars downtown to start their weekend.

"For the most part, it has brought a new awareness to downtown and to businesses that were relying solely on their own foot traffic," said Metzger, whose cafe sits closer to the tracks than any other business, with windows overlooking the MacArthur Square station.

Sales at her shop are up about 20 percent, on average, in the six months of light-rail operation, Metzger said.

"The walking pattern has changed dramatically because of the train," Metzger said.

Eastern Virginia Medical School students have become new Bean There customers, she said. No longer worried about needing time to find a downtown parking space, they take light rail to get a quick coffee during class or hospital breaks.

The biggest benefit of The Tide for Brick House is the commuting option for the staff, Routsis said. Three of his workers who live in Virginia Beach park at the Newtown Road station and ride to work most days. That saves him $80 per month in parking fees per worker.

From the Civic Plaza station, riders looking across St. Paul's Boulevard can't miss the "Breakfast-Lunch" and "Gyros-Burgers" signs above the windows of Brick House Diner.

"For us, it's perfect, because they get off the stop and they see us," said John Routsis, who co-owns the diner with his brother, Bill. "People know where we're at now."

MacArthur Center's (a shopping mall) parking office faces the station across City Hall Avenue. Staff members have watched a stream of Tide riders head to the mall from the train and, sometimes, return to the tracks later with shopping bags, said Jim Wofford, the mall's general manager.

That might not represent a gain, he acknowledged, if some MacArthur Center customers who used to drive and park are now taking light rail instead.

Nonetheless, Wofford believes that The Tide has brought bonus traffic to the mall, encouraging shoppers who otherwise might go elsewhere.

During the holidays, "when the parking spaces were at a premium," he said, "we had a lot of folks that actually rode in on light rail."

At the Newtown stop, though, the 7-Eleven has become an oasis. Riley has added inventory since August to meet the demand, in particular for bottled water, Gator-ade, iced tea, beer and wine.

Sales of hot food have grown to $245 daily from $60 to $75 before light rail. No food or drink is allowed on trains, but customers often have time to wait at the end of the line.

full article: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/some-stores-near-norfolk-light-rail-stations-see-boost

[Dashing Dan]

^Going east, where would you terminate it?

Market Street or Liberty Street would work for me.

From there to the stadium you could have a streetcar.

[tufsu1]

^ a streetcar that is less than 1 mile long seems like a waste to me...so you need to extend it west and/or north

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting, I still think a streetcar down Water/independence to Newnan and hence north to Beaver, east on Beaver to AP Randolph, to Duval, and back to Newnan would work best. Why? Because at the hypothetical intersection of Beaver Street and the former F&J rail line from Springfield to Maxwell House, we have a perfect right-of-way, and a straight off the street shot north through Springfield to Norwood Plaza. Once you achieve that, then the balance of the 'S' line could be restored with streetcar by day, freight by night, it would help pay the light bill.

OCK

[Dashing Dan]

^ a streetcar that is less than 1 mile long seems like a waste to me...so you need to extend it west and/or north

Maybe we're not talking about the same kind of streetcar.  I'm thinking of a heritage type streetcar that would operate at a low speed with frequent stops, like Memphis.

[Ocklawaha]

Not really different Dan, just being creative with our 'heritage cars' would blow the socks off of the slow, middle of the street, stops at every corner streetcars. The way I see it, using Bay for the Streetcars is a disaster in the making. Not that streetcar couldn't serve the stadiums with a line every bit as good as the Skyway, but using Bay would set back a shot at the private right-of-way from Beaver to Springfield and Norwood, for a long, time. Grabbing Newnan as the north-south route, then east on the Beaver Street alignment (alignment because Beaver doesn't cross Hogans Creek) to A.P.Randolph.

We would still have a chance to lead the country IF we went with heritage equipment some of which could possibly be the lightweight, high speed interurban cars. These cars are really no different then the traditional streetcar, but they have the ability to break 100 mph if given a chance.  Remember too that electric transit vehicles accelerates much faster then a bus, truck and most cars. Here's a photo of one such streetcar, and the article that says it all.

The Cincinnati and Lake Erie Railway bought new 'trolley' carsâ€"called Go Devils when they first appeared and Red Devils in later yearsâ€"cruised at eighty miles an hour and were clocked running with tapped fields at 101 miles per hour on the company’s north end. In order to attract riders for these fast and comfortable cars, Conway put in free parking lots at almost all of the stations throughout the system. To publicize the cars’ introduction, he staged publicity events such as the one captured in photo. (C&LE 128, making ninety-seven miles per hour, crosses the finish line the clear winner. The race, filmed by Pathe News, played in movie houses throughout Ohio.)

So while I am talking heritage streetcar, but heritage streetcar thoroughbreds. I'm not suggesting that we could run these cars at 100 mph, rather as they leave the streets and assume their private right of way they should be able to smoke any bus JTA has on a similar route.

Track structure plays a HUGE ROLE in all forms of rail. Light-Rail really does use 'lighter rail' which is measured by pounds per yard. Normal CSX/FEC/NS rail generally runs from 132-156 pounds per yard, the rail on the famous Cincinnati and Lake Erie was mostly 75 pound. Lighter rail equals lighter construction costs. Most modern systems are using 90-110 pound rail. We would want to use at least 110 pound on the 'S' Belt Line as it is likely to have freight trains running over it, but the rest of the system could be much lighter.

For those who have just joined us, streetcars are a type of light rail, though the term light-rail generally means an reincarnation of the historic interurban railways. CSX, FEC, NS, Amtrak or commuter rail ARE NOT light rail. An important thing to remember is a 1911 model vintage streetcar, modern light rail car, and a electric bullet train are not only related, they are similar under the hood.

One more bit of information, IF we build a track system good enough for light rails heavier cars, that track should extend down the Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Newnan-Independence/Water street sections, anything else could be built to lighter streetcar standards. This would hold down costs in places like Riverside, Avondale, and Springfield, while allowing for some future upgrade running the 'S' - Water/Independence - Newnan - Beaver - (pvt track) to Springfield, Norwood, and returning via the 'S' through Durkeeville.

For my last thought on the Skyway to San Marco, try to think in terms of flowing lines, in this case a sort of table fork shape. The handle or main trunk of the Skyway would be the line on the Southbank, but for smooth seamless distribution of passengers, it needs to connect to the primary work/live/play centers on the Northbank. Such a system would at least cover routes into north-east-and west parts of downtown. There would be no transfers or change of cars if the Southbank line ended somewhere in the east side, and the Rosa Parks route ended at Jacksonville Terminal.

It's the whole 'access to the north side' that accounts for all of my reason to give Bay to the Skyway, now or later, but stake a claim on Beaver for the streetcars.

...And guess which competitor city is going back to streetcar?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Using Bay wouldn't eliminate the possibility of using the old F&J line.  I'd argue that it make the concept of the F&J much better than Beaver would.  All you would need to do is install track on Marsh Street (next to Maxwell House).  Such a move could also open up the possibility to Maxwell House becoming a rail client once again. 

[I-10east]

Everytime I see one of Ock's nostalgic black & white transportation pics, some old 1900 era ragtime music automatically pops in my head.

[Dashing Dan]

Right outside Philadelphia I rode on the Brill Bullet cars once or twice in the early Seventies.  No time for pix but here's a description.

Now known as SEPTA's Route 100 Norristown High Speed Line, the Philadelphia and Western was built in 1906 from Upper Darby to Strafford. The branch to Norristown, which includes the long truss bridge over the Schuylkill River, was completed in 1912. The entire line is grade separated, with an energized third rail providing the power. A portion of the original line, from Villanova to Strafford, was abandoned in 1956. That leaves the thirteen-mile long Upper Darby to Norristown segment active, with a new branch to the malls at King of Prussia currently under preliminary study.

All-aluminum Bullet cars were the mainstay of this line from 1931 until almost 1990. These excellent, high-speed trolleys were the first rail cars designed in a wind tunnel. Scale models were tested at the University of Michigan. Imagine the early airplanes and dirigible airships that were also being designed at that time. Not only were these cars the latest in style, they made use of state of the art technology. They were capable of speed approaching 100 mph, and saw 80 mph regularly. That they lasted sixty years is a tribute to the soundness of the design, and the quality of their Brill construction. (The J.G. Brill company, with its sprawling plant in southwest Philadelphia, was the largest trolley manufacturer in the world.)

But you don't need anything like that on Bay Street.