Mass Transit Deja Vu?

[fsujax]

the public has always been against the Skyway.

[Ocklawaha]

For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?

While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...

JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.

Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.

Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned.  The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.

Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!

OCKLAWAHA

[wsansewjs]

For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?

While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...

JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.

Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.

Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned.  The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.

Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!

OCKLAWAHA

Sounds like a massive and severe case of diarrhea and all of us are STILL swimming in it after 30+ years with our own (air pollution) health, (pedestrian) safety, money (tax money), and (precious) time.

-Josh

[halimeade]

If it makes you feel any better. Portland is currently in the process of destroying a lot of progress they've made with the TriMet system. Increasing fees, cutting lines... needless to say lots of locals are not happy about it.

[dougskiles]

Sounds like the work of a true conservative southern city...always a little behind....like 80 years.

I used to wonder if the attitudes against public transit truly were a conservative thing as you suggest.

Then I saw firsthand the success Salt Lake has had with their system.  Shortly after being awarded the Winter Olympics about 15 years ago, they went to work on a light rail system on an old, abandoned freight line (very similar to the S-line), called TRAX.  After much success and public support, they have expanded the system (and are still expanding).  They also have a commuter rail system called FrontRunner that connects the nearby cities.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb1.ctaa.org%2Fwebmodules%2Fwebarticles%2Fanmviewer.asp%3Fa%3D2783%26z%3D5&ei=xOFGT5HdOYvrtgeL9P2wDg&usg=AFQjCNGDQstwXxuXGVZnO77an6TDiHGT0w&sig2=RzLVog-rICfc4hdCwoChEQ

And have recently been awarded a streetcar project for a redeveloped portion of town (Sugar House).
http://www.shstreetcar.com/

They have a bus system with the main purpose of connecting neighborhoods to the fixed transit stops.  What it does NOT do is duplicate the fixed transit system.

Now - I don't know of too many places that are more conservative than Salt Lake City, Utah.  I believe now that it is just plain ol' ignorance and shortsightedness that has done us in.

[thelakelander]

^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system?  They are an excellent model to follow.

[KenFSU]

For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?

While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...

JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.

Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.

Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned.  The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.

Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks for the info Ock!

If I can pick your (or someone else's) brain just a little bit further, what about the Better Jacksonville Plan? Was that a tough sell to the city? Jacksonville residents have always seemed a little tight on the purse strings, did BJP face a lot of opposition?

[dougskiles]

^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system?  They are an excellent model to follow.

I got a few pics.  Not great quality though on my phone.






^This photo was taken at 6:30 on a Saturday night.  The train was mostly full from the Midvale station (where we got on - about 15 miles south of downtown) all the way to downtown.  No NBA game that night, and not the commuter rush hour.


^We bought a SuperPass for skiing at the local resorts and what did you know - it included FREE rides on their system.


^No specific purpose for this photo... i couldn't sleep one morning and decided to go out for a run in the snow.  Very surreal experience.

[Tacachale]

Thanks for the info Ock!

If I can pick your (or someone else's) brain just a little bit further, what about the Better Jacksonville Plan? Was that a tough sell to the city? Jacksonville residents have always seemed a little tight on the purse strings, did BJP face a lot of opposition?

The Better Jacksonville Plan had the right elements go into it before it got off the ground. First and foremost, it was designed specifically to address concerns people already had (worsening traffic, aging facilities, sprawl, lack of park space, need for targeted economic development, etc), as well as to contain something that would appeal to people all over the city. The administration spent a huge amount of planning time before the proposal was ever announced.

It was also spearheaded by a mayor who'd wracked up a lot of goodwill and popularity, and was able to channel that into finding support for the plan. In addition to that, the administration put a lot of effort into grassroots campaigns and marketing - which was paid for by private donations rather than public money - to hear feedback and get people on board. In the end there was a huge amount of backing, including every city council member and every living former mayor.

As far as backlash goes, there was some noise from your typical small-minded cynics at the time, but the only organized opposition came from the "Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County", a sort of proto-Tea Party anti-tax group that included AM radio stalwart/human spleen Andy Johnson.

Most of the bad vibes some people have toward the BJP now came from later on, after Mayor Peyton botched certain items, most notably the Courthouse. The Courthouse was perhaps the least popular provision of the BJP (though we were required to build one whether we raised the tax or not), but Peyton turned it into an embarrassment.

In my estimation it would be harder to pull off something like this now. The anti-tax element is much better organized in these Tea Party days than they were in 2000. At the same time, though, "subsidizing" Downtown was the biggest bone of contention for BJP opposition, and there are a lot more folks who are really motivated to support downtown and the core than there were then. It would really depend on how well Brown does in rallying people to pull off a big picture item like that.

[fieldafm]

The Skyway was then and even upon reflection now... was always a federal money grab(and a huge boondoggle of a bunch of adjacent land grabs-one that even Bucky Clarkson is still trying to get money from decades later) that a lot of people thought stunk. 

BJP was actually a much easier sell(it always appeased many, many groups-the characteristic of any good large-scale public works package).

Two things you have to keep in mind about both issues... both had STRONG LEADERSHIP behind it(Godbold with the Skyway, Delaney with BJP). 

Still waiting on Mayor Brown to start kicking it up in the leadership department, and frankly was worried about that a way before the election. 

[fieldafm]

^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system?  They are an excellent model to follow.

I got a few pics.  Not great quality though on my phone.






^This photo was taken at 6:30 on a Saturday night.  The train was mostly full from the Midvale station (where we got on - about 15 miles south of downtown) all the way to downtown.  No NBA game that night, and not the commuter rush hour.


^We bought a SuperPass for skiing at the local resorts and what did you know - it included FREE rides on their system.


^No specific purpose for this photo... i couldn't sleep one morning and decided to go out for a run in the snow.  Very surreal experience.

Salt Lake's system is awesome.  Used it on a trip to Alta a few years back and really thought it was well designed.

[thelakelander]

How is Salt Lake City's downtown?  Does it resemble Jacksonville's in terms of street level vibrancy?  How about its burbs?

[fieldafm]

Couldn't tell you about the burbs.. but in DT SLC, I saw things such as bicycle parking on the street, food trucks and a lot of buildings that opened up to the street.

Also, it was winter time(but if you've ever been in Brooklyn in the winter time, it can get dirty)... but their downtown is clean, like spotless clean. 

There is a big mall-like contraption there that has a bunch of stores inside(not like the Landing, more like a MUCH bigger version of the Atrium in the Wells Fargo Building) and from what I was told, an old mall was also once built downtown.

But bike parking, people walking, storefronts that activated the street and food trucks were all things I encountered... while it certainly wasn't in the top 10 of downtowns I have ever visited around the country... it was certainly leaps and bounds better than Jax.  And I say that not to be negative towards Jax, as I am certainly very bullish on the VAST potential of this city.

[dougskiles]

My experiences were similar to fieldafm's.  I was there on a Friday and Saturday night.  There weren't crowds of people on the street, but there were significantly more than you would see in Jax.  The restaurants we went to were full of people (and so were the ones we passed).

fieldafm - when you were there - did you go to Squatters Pub Brewery downtown?  Loved the Full Suspension Pale Ale.

[AaroniusLives]

http://www.montgomeryplanning.org/viewer.shtm#http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/dot/MCBRTStudyfinalreport110728.pdf

Montgomery County's BRT plan. It's quite comprehensive, although it's interesting to note that in this application, BRT is integrating with existing heavy rail, existing commuter rail and soon-to-arrive light rail.