Commentary on Religious Run Venues

[RiversideLoki]

Whose the lesser open mind? The venue organizers sticking to one very specific subset of religious society? Or the diverse religious (and non-religious) makeup of the surrounding neighborhoods?

That area of Murray Hill will continue to not draw the crowds simply because there's simply very little demand for such an establishment. It's clear that they're trying to band-aid the problem of getting people in the door by slapping a "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on the same old product.

Bring back movies, bring back Rocky Horror, bring back fun to Murray Hill. And more importantly, make sure that this COMMERCIAL venture is TAXED accordingly.

The Murray Hill Theatre & Cafe is operated by Murray Hill Ministries, founded in 1995 by Tony Nasrallah. It is a non-profit, 501( c ) 3 tax exempt volunteer driven, faith-based community service organization.

The theatre is an alcohol-free, smoke free, all-ages night club that features live Christian and positive music and uses music and the arts to present things of faith in a positive light It provides an alternative to typical bars and nightclubs, giving young adults a safe nightspot to enjoy live entertainment without drugs or alcohol. It also has a cafe with computers and internet access as well as a recording studio and an outdoor patio area.

We encourage the faith community in Jacksonville to use the events at The Murray Hill Theatre as a way of building relationships with people outside of the faith community. The theatre offers a great environment for friendship evangelism.

This is blatant commercialism under the tax-free guise of "ministry". People pay a cover charge to pay the bands and pay for food. While I commend them on their drug, alcohol, and smoke free environment, this is nothing but a money making venture.

[Jimmy]

Amen and +1

[ben says]

Whose the lesser open mind? The venue organizers sticking to one very specific subset of religious society? Or the diverse religious (and non-religious) makeup of the surrounding neighborhoods?

That area of Murray Hill will continue to not draw the crowds simply because there's simply very little demand for such an establishment. It's clear that they're trying to band-aid the problem of getting people in the door by slapping a "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on the same old product.

Bring back movies, bring back Rocky Horror, bring back fun to Murray Hill. And more importantly, make sure that this COMMERCIAL venture is TAXED accordingly.

The Murray Hill Theatre & Cafe is operated by Murray Hill Ministries, founded in 1995 by Tony Nasrallah. It is a non-profit, 501( c ) 3 tax exempt volunteer driven, faith-based community service organization.

The theatre is an alcohol-free, smoke free, all-ages night club that features live Christian and positive music and uses music and the arts to present things of faith in a positive light It provides an alternative to typical bars and nightclubs, giving young adults a safe nightspot to enjoy live entertainment without drugs or alcohol. It also has a cafe with computers and internet access as well as a recording studio and an outdoor patio area.

We encourage the faith community in Jacksonville to use the events at The Murray Hill Theatre as a way of building relationships with people outside of the faith community. The theatre offers a great environment for friendship evangelism.

This is blatant commercialism under the tax-free guise of "ministry". People pay a cover charge to pay the bands and pay for food. While I commend them on their drug, alcohol, and smoke free environment, this is nothing but a money making venture.

Couldn't agree more.

[Dapperdan]

Whose the lesser open mind? The venue organizers sticking to one very specific subset of religious society? Or the diverse religious (and non-religious) makeup of the surrounding neighborhoods?

That area of Murray Hill will continue to not draw the crowds simply because there's simply very little demand for such an establishment. It's clear that they're trying to band-aid the problem of getting people in the door by slapping a "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on the same old product.

Bring back movies, bring back Rocky Horror, bring back fun to Murray Hill. And more importantly, make sure that this COMMERCIAL venture is TAXED accordingly.

The Murray Hill Theatre & Cafe is operated by Murray Hill Ministries, founded in 1995 by Tony Nasrallah. It is a non-profit, 501( c ) 3 tax exempt volunteer driven, faith-based community service organization.

The theatre is an alcohol-free, smoke free, all-ages night club that features live Christian and positive music and uses music and the arts to present things of faith in a positive light It provides an alternative to typical bars and nightclubs, giving young adults a safe nightspot to enjoy live entertainment without drugs or alcohol. It also has a cafe with computers and internet access as well as a recording studio and an outdoor patio area.

We encourage the faith community in Jacksonville to use the events at The Murray Hill Theatre as a way of building relationships with people outside of the faith community. The theatre offers a great environment for friendship evangelism.

This is blatant commercialism under the tax-free guise of "ministry". People pay a cover charge to pay the bands and pay for food. While I commend them on their drug, alcohol, and smoke free environment, this is nothing but a money making venture.

This is not a money making venture. I know for a fact that Murray Hill runs in the red for most of the time. It is supported by very low cover charges, donations, and various minsitries that help keep it afloat. Trying to make money to pay utlities, mortgage, salaries,etc does not make something "for profit."

Do you want to make the owners an offer on the building so you can show movies? Maybe you have the capital to invest in a camera, licensing fees, etc and then try to figure out how much you need to charge at a single cinema just to stay afloat? Or maybe you can go to  Five Points or San marco which already cover this niche very well.

. It is obvious you hate the place because of its association with religion. That is your issue. I for one welcome the new management and look forward to what new life they can breathe into the theatre and create some more mainstream type events and shows.

[RiversideLoki]

I don't hate the place because its "association with religion". But let's call a spade a spade here and knock off the "why don't you make an offer on the building" straw-man argument.

Running a church is obviously a tax-exempt venture. But running a night club, selling food, charging cover at the door and calling all of those "donations"? Give me a break.

[ben says]

I don't "hate it for it's religion" either (and I definitely have my qualms with religion...).

Two things that bother me about this place:

1) It looks super cool, but its a dead-zone. It's such a niche market to the point where if you don't belong in that scene, you'll never even walk by it. It's a cool space that could be used for 100 other cool things. I even know self-professed, Church-going Christians who won't go to that place because it gives them the heebie-jeebies and would rather see it as something else.

2) The tax-exemption thing drives me insane. I don't care if he can barely meet overhead--doesn't justify the tax exemption.

[Jimmy]

I don't hate religion, Christianity, or making money. 

But I agree with Loki and what ben say(s).

[ben says]

Loki.

Normally I agree with your posts, but on this subject, I feel like you are just being intolerant.

Its a weird argument to make anyways, as you seem to be conflating a 'ministry' with a venue.  And your arguments sound exactly like the same kinds of things that people say about gay friendly establishments.

In fact, Im a little shocked at Jimmy's intolerance on this, considering that these same things are exactly what people said when his uncle Monroe opened one of the most legendary gay bars ever opened in Jacksonville just down the street:  College Station.

I knew Monroe fairly well, and I know that he had to deal with the same kind of closemindedness.

It shouldnt matter what kind of core aesthetic an establishment is, whether gay, straight, christian, hindi or muslim.  If it has a good product and a great environment it should be allowed to succeed, imo.

I'm not critiquing it on religious, gay, ethnic, socioeconomic grounds. It may sound like that, and I apologize for that.

I'm critiquing it in the same way I critique the Brick being in Avondale (sucks, bad food, space could be used for something else), the same way I critique YoNilla in 5 Points (stop opening up yogurt stores, space better used for something else), same way I critique Pele's for sucking (sorry, that one was too easy).

Merely saying that the space could be used for something else and benefit the neighborhood in a much stronger, better, and clearer way. It's a gorgeous, unique space that benefits .0000001% of Jacksonville's population (Christian teens, I presume?). To be quite frank, I'd rather a gay discotheque there....at least it would attack a sizable portion of the area.

[ben says]

Also, I may add, if the Christian themed club can succeed, and bring a sizable portion of the population to the area, I'm extremely happy with that and fully support it.

My comments have been in reference to something Loki said, not religious establishments in general.

That area of Murray Hill will continue to not draw the crowds simply because there's simply very little demand for such an establishment. It's clear that they're trying to band-aid the problem of getting people in the door by slapping a "NEW AND IMPROVED" sticker on the same old product.

[RiversideLoki]

The old tactic of "attacking anyone who criticizes you as religiously intolerant" in full effect, Stephen. I'd have the same opinion if they were the freaking free thought society. If you're running what is ostensibly a for-profit venue which isn't a classic place of worship (or in the case of the FTS non-worship) under the auspices of a "ministry" you should be paying taxes and paying your fair share. This isn't some radical anti-religious screed. It's just common sense.

I'm not saying that I don't want them to succeed. If they can pack the place to the walls, that's great. But what is blatantly a commercial venue shouldn't be tax-exempt regardless of their religious affiliation. Do you think acts dc Talk, Reliant K, Underoath, and Kutless are in it for the gospel? No, they're in it to sell records, and their labels are in it to make a profit, and the clubs that book them (as Murray Hill as booked these bands in the past) have to make a profit to A) pay them and their labels and B) keep the doors open. Thus proving that this is a commercial endeavor.

[ben says]

The old tactic of "attacking anyone who criticizes you as religiously intolerant" in full effect, Stephen. I'd have the same opinion if they were the freaking free thought society. If you're running what is ostensibly a for-profit venue which isn't a classic place of worship (or in the case of the FTS non-worship) under the auspices of a "ministry" you should be paying taxes and paying your fair share. This isn't some radical anti-religious screed. It's just common sense.

I'm not saying that I don't want them to succeed. If they can pack the place to the walls, that's great. But what is blatantly a commercial venue shouldn't be tax-exempt regardless of their religious affiliation. Do you think acts dc Talk, Reliant K, Underoath, and Kutless are in it for the gospel? No, they're in it to sell records, and their labels are in it to make a profit, and the clubs that book them (as Murray Hill as booked these bands in the past) have to make a profit to A) pay them and their labels and B) keep the doors open. Thus proving that this is a commercial endeavor.

Exactly...this was my second point. Which really transcends the issue of religion, and moves into my critique of it's tax exemption. Not a fan.

[ben says]

Stephen, just re-read my posts, don't see anything about a critique on "new plans"....oh well, new plans or not, my critique remains the same. Hope I wasn't disrespectful.

[ben says]

Stephen, just re-read my posts, don't see anything about a critique on "new plans"....oh well, new plans or not, my critique remains the same. Hope I wasn't disrespectful.

well then what were you critiquing, if your critique isnt really about religion or religious organizations being tax exempt?

The original post which spun this thread off was about changes coming to the Murray Hill Theatre to make it more of an asset to the community around it.

Are you critiquing that?

My critique did not spin off "changes coming to Murray Hill Theatre"....well I guess loosely, they did. They came off what Loki said, and what Jimmy said. Does it really matter? Were my points/additions any less valid? Don't see the issue here...it's not like I hopped on a Springfield thread and started spouting off about Jax Beach.

I was talking about tax exemption status of the place, it's purpose, and my thoughts on what it brings to the neighborhood and the neighborhood in general...

[ben says]

I think you're taking my opinion as close-mindedness, and that's just not the case....you're talking to a progressive, humanitarian, anything-goes, ex-hippie-type.

My opinion is based 100% on enhancing the neighborhood of Murray Hill, which I try to frequent as much as possible. Because I want the neighborhood enhanced, I want a place to succeed and attract as many people to the neighborhood as possible. All I'm saying is: I don't think that business gives Murray Hill the amount of attention it deserves. Just like I think YoNilla could be better reformatted as something else, to enhance the amount of people that come to 5 Points. I don't care if the theatre is Buddhist, Radical Islam, or Christian...just want success and a thriving neighborhood.

[ben says]

Because of this thread, I will make a point to go check it out within the next few weeks