Hemming Park Problem

[Garden guy]

Are the police supposed to arrest every homeless person in downtown...i hear lot of bitching but no real solution here..how many on here are homeless and on the street or mental and on the streets? And putting everyone in jail is just stupid...theyll be released in a fewhours because theres no room.

[JeffreyS]

This whole "race issue" is a "straw man argument"; the simple fact is that the homeless and vagrant situation downtown is a *serious* impediment to the revitalization of the core.  In all the time I've lived downtown it is by far the most commonly cited reason why friends and acquaintances are reluctant to even visit downtown, much less make a huge wager by moving here.  The alley behind our building reeks of urine, there is frequently feces on the sidewalk, my girlfriend and son are routinely hassled and frightened by clearly deranged homeless people while walking in and out of our building.  These are not "suits" nor "grannies", so really, knock it off with all the straw man arguments.  The same goes for the preposterous "I live downtown and have never been attacked by them" line. I drive a car every day but haven't had a fatal accident; does that mean that fatal accidents are not real?

Bottom line: Whats needed in Hemming Plaza, and downtown in general, are cops that will move these people along.  There are laws against loitering and vagrancy, we simply need enforcement of them. 

So you want to do away with people loitering at parks??? Race is the issue if it were a bunch of white people sitting around there would be no meetings to fret about if a black man felt comfortable to visit. If this was the gathering place for a large group of Hasidic Jews no one would be ploting to steal the seats so that a Catholic could sit.

[strider]

While I do have to admit I have not read every word in this thread, It does seem as this is nothing but a case of use it or lose it.  The group that everyone likes, let's call them the "cool kids", isn't comfortable with those that are using the park and so are trying to find ways of excluding them.  The sad part is that once the unwanted are gone, the odds are the park will still not be used by the group complaining the loudest.  In fact they will still complain about the next group using the park, even if they are old ladies knitting at all hours of the day.

Like many have mentioned, every time I have been down at the park at say lunch time, the types of people using the park are very mixed.  Of course, the" unwanted" are often the only ones in the park the majority of time.  The only other people downtown then are working. Either in a building or going to somewhere and do not have time to sit in the park.  Almost no none else is down there. There is really no reason to be there other than work.

Want to see that change? Then listen to the Lakelander's of the city and make the changes needed to make that happen.  Removing benches, more law enforcement and the like will not change a thing.  Use it or lose it.

[John P]

Lets cut the bs. The bottom line is that the park is overrun by homeless people and "regular" people dont want to spend their free time hanging out with homeless people. Call it whatever you like. If you want to attract "regular" citizens to the park without any new programming, attractions or whatever then you have to get rid of the huge group of homeless people that everyone else doesnt want to be around. If 75 homeless people camped out on 1 strech of the riverwalk all day guess what? People wouldnt want to use that part of the riverwalk either. The unwashed, unrefined and possibly crazy make people uncomfortable. That's the way it is. Lakelander, you are barking up the wrong tree with the public restrooms. The alley smells like urine because its a quick and easy. Last time I checked all the shelters have bathroom access and the small daycenters that are already there do too. Access to bathrooms isnt the problem its the mental health of people that would rather take a dump on the sidewalk than in the woods or a public bathroom. You can thank Reagan in the 80s for emptying out our mental hospitals. Those people live in shelters now.

[downtownjag]

Lets cut the bs. The bottom line is that the park is overrun by homeless people and "regular" people dont want to spend their free time hanging out with homeless people. Call it whatever you like. If you want to attract "regular" citizens to the park without any new programming, attractions or whatever then you have to get rid of the huge group of homeless people that everyone else doesnt want to be around. If 75 homeless people camped out on 1 strech of the riverwalk all day guess what? People wouldnt want to use that part of the riverwalk either. The unwashed, unrefined and possibly crazy make people uncomfortable. That's the way it is. Lakelander, you are barking up the wrong tree with the public restrooms. The alley smells like urine because its a quick and easy. Last time I checked all the shelters have bathroom access and the small daycenters that are already there do too. Access to bathrooms isnt the problem its the mental health of people that would rather take a dump on the sidewalk than in the woods or a public bathroom. You can thank Reagan in the 80s for emptying out our mental hospitals. Those people live in shelters now.

THANK YOU. 

[thelakelander]

John P, the bottom line is there's no reason for most of society to spend anytime in that park when a special event isn't going on.  It's overrun by "homeless and vagrants" because everyone else has abandoned it and downtown the last half century.  Just look at the history of the general area. 

It was the place to be when storefronts opened on all four sides of it.   It was a place where major events and speeches were held on a regular basis.  It was about the only green space in downtown, outside of Springfield Park/Hogans Creek for several years.

Now, other than Subway, the museum, and library, the remaining park edges are pretty much dead.  A chunk of special events that should be in the park are now on the riverfront and at Metropolitan Park.  If you want to change the park's environment, you add the things that were taken away, back to the mix.  This is basic urbanism and it's been proven over and over again in communities all across the country.  I've even provided in this thread several examples where adding amenities (as opposed to taking them away) improves these spaces.  When you get more activity happening, people who don't bothered with these things move on to the next dead space no one else cares about.

Why do we think that following the same principle won't work in Jacksonville and Hemming Plaza?  Why do we keep attempting to chart our own course with unproven solutions that are simply based off opinion instead of facts?

Btw, take a look at the public space across the street (right in front of the courthouse).  It's not "over run by vagrants and homeless", yet no one uses it either.  Why?  Because there's simply no reason to go there.  It's just a space, not a "place."

As for public restrooms, that's not just for the homeless, that's for all of us.  Any decent sized park that we want people to use around the clock should have basic restroom facilities.  This is a no-brainer if the focus becomes designing a space for human scale comfortability and enjoyment, which in turn stimulates the vibrancy everybody claims they want to see.

[downtownjag]

IF EVERYONE IS SOO INTO THIS SUBJECT; WHY DON'T WE ALL MEET DOWN THERE FOR LUNCH ONE DAY AND SEE WHAT WE COME UP WITH?

[thelakelander]

I'm game.  I can see the park from my office window. 

[Bridges]

I'm so tired of un-innovative thinking running everything.  If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you always got. 

We've made Hemming plaza (and downtown) so cold and hostile.  It's the solution to everything.  If we close off sidewalk access, keep stores private and out of sight from citizens, close down unwanted shops, prohibit vendors, remove seats from public parks, we just might make it shitty and miserable enough that no one, not even transients, would want to come.  Then we'll have a crappy place that even we don't want to go to, but at least there won't be "undesirables".

Lake's right.  It's time to try something completely different.  Instead of closing off and shutting down, let's open up and come alive. 

[Jameson]

Thank you, John P.

Enough with the political correctness. Hemming Plaza is just a place for the homeless, bums, and vagrants to sit down and hang out in the shade during the day. Then at night, they sprawl out around downtown and start the panhandling. There's a sign right outside my building that says panhandling is illegal, but I have yet to ever see it enforced.

As for me personally, the bums don't deter me from the park. And I'll be honest, I don't know what the answer is.

But I do think that one possible solution would be making the park more kid-friendly. At least 3-4 days a week there are School Buses lined up on Monroe St. taking kids on field trips to the Library. What if the Teachers had the option to let their Students have lunch in the park after visiting the Library? What if the City designated certain areas of the park with activities catered towards schoolchildren? What if the kids could then learn about the history of the city and the park while eating lunch and then playing games? This would be a much better utilization of the space in my opinion and over time, hopefully deter the bums from the space.

[Tacachale]

Perhaps the solution is a whole array of solutions, ranging from implementing suggestions such as Lakelanders' above, to enforcing laws against problematic behaviors such as panhandling, sleeping in a right-of-way, etc., to increasing services for the homeless (like a day center) outside of downtown.

[Jameson]

There are plenty of services to help the Homeless. The problem IS the Homeless. As odd as it may sound, so many of them like the independence of living on the streets, are addicted to drugs/alcohol, and are perfectly fine with panhandling around for their next fix. It's not our responsibility to change what they want to do with their lives. You can't help someone that won't help themselves. This further complicates the issue.

[downtownjag]

I'm game.  I can see the park from my office window. 

I'm on Adams, so it's an easy walk for me too

[John P]

There are plenty of services to help the Homeless. The problem IS the Homeless. As odd as it may sound, so many of them like the independence of living on the streets, are addicted to drugs/alcohol, and are perfectly fine with panhandling around for their next fix. It's not our responsibility to change what they want to do with their lives. You can't help someone that won't help themselves. This further complicates the issue.

I agree but introducing regular programming and making it more appealing to everyone like lakelander said is a good idea also. The problem is there is no kind of regular programing that can duplicate the use of the park a la Art walk. Thats when homeless leave because its filled with vendors and patrons. The farmers market just moved from hemming plaza to the Landing last year to get more customers. Small programming wont make homeless leave or blend in. Only large programming. Long term the answer is more use and crack down on homeless. Greater restrictions and more rules for them. If youre not in work traing and rehab and if you dont pass drug alcohol tests then you dont get meals or beds. Homeless who dont want to change or follow these reasonable rules will leave town. 1 way bus tickets are a good idea too. Either Jax is serious about fixing the issue or not. Enough wishy washy half way measures.

Hope you are reading this Ron Chamblin.

[JeffreyS]

I'm game.  I can see the park from my office window. 

I'm on Adams, so it's an easy walk for me too

I am up for it  but I would most likely need one days notice.