Learning From Dallas?

[Ocklawaha]

Nothing to learn y'all, we already do better then this... and we didn't have to shoot a president to get a nut job, and 10 visitors on a Sunday Street downtown. You want to compaire parking garages? Holy Crap, I wuz overwhelmed. Sort of an end of the world feeling? Like somebody important showed up for the chosen and you somehow got left behind? DALLAS on a beautiful 90 degree, but low humidity, breezy Sunday afternoon__ More dead then the Prime Osbourne, Deader then any walk on the river, DEAD! Door nail DEAD! Streets are ugly, too. Very lifeless, Lake I think you would rip this place a new one, a new one so big you could bury Jacksonville in the hole and have room left over for Florida - Georgia. Even the Hard Rock's, historic building got torn down because someone thought they could sell the hole... McKinney Avenue Streetcar starts at a SUBWAY STATION, about 400' below the street. When you pop up, it is in the middle of NO WHERE. Just a little glass "Skywayesq wart" along the side of a road in someplace like a deserted version of the 5-Points Park. NO KIDDING! The end of a track, a trolley line alongside the street, at a "T" intersection. Well worn out wood bark chips, in a traffic island and a sea of asphalt. LRT? (Yes folks, this system is so overbuilt it's really mis-named HEAVY RAIL). Shades of Medellin riping along the 75 freeway at 75 MPH --- Oh yeah, sorry to those Slow Trolley heads at JTA. Frickin' Flying. Pushing the 80 mark in several spots. I'm looking forward to doing a report and perhaps if the video turns out we'll use some of it. If we build on what we have, we're already way ahead.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

I was impressed by Dallas.  I expected nothing more than a sprawling Atlanta or Houston and was quite suprised to find interesting neighborhoods (once you get past the sprawl), a progressive attitude for rail, vibrant entertainment districts and lots of budding TODs.  Downtown wasn't that impressive, but Uptown, Downtown Fort Worth, Texas BBQ, Deep Ellum, a diverse collection of architecture and the expanding rail system easily made up for it.  In less than 10 years, they've turned a sprawling Jacksonville-style asphalt hugging environment into one that a resident could actually live car-free with mass transit being an asset, as opposed to a hassle.

Learning from Dallas
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/247/118/

Learning from Fort Worth
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/236/118/


The major thing I did not like about Dallas was it was not on the coast.  To me, port cities have a special feel and added dimension about them that prairie cities lack.

[thelakelander]

McKinney Avenue Streetcar starts at a SUBWAY STATION, about 400' below the street. When you pop up, it is in the middle of NO WHERE. Just a little glass "Skywayesq wart" along the side of a road in someplace like a deserted version of the 5-Points Park. NO KIDDING! The end of a track, a trolley line alongside the street, at a "T" intersection. Well worn out wood bark chips, in a traffic island and a sea of asphalt. LRT? Ocklawaha

You must have caught it at Cityplace Station, where the light rail line goes under the Central Expressway.  If you would have exited that station to the east, you would have came up in a large highrise TOD on the other side of the Central Expressway.  On the west, where you caught the trolley, there's been a lot of TOD activity (including West Village), although there's still a large vacant lot where the trolley line ends.

West Village


When I caught the trolley, I believe I got off the light rail line Dowtown at the Akard Station and walked up to McKinney Avenue (about seven blocks) to get a feel for the streetscape.  Did you get a chance to walk through the St. Thomas neighborhood off McKinney?  Its a great example of an infill district that popped up, in large part, because of mass transit.  I would love to see development like this in LaVilla or the Cathedral District.

St. Thomas Neighborhood


In any event, if you're in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, the real treat is Fort Worth, not Dallas.  Hop on TRE commuter rail, spend a night in Dowtown Fort Worth and enjoy a steak in the Stockyards District.  Fort Worth also has an extensive collection of bike paths paralleling the Trinity River.  You also have to give that city credit for its Trinity River Vision plan.





Trinity River Vision - imagine if Jax's leaders could put together an inner city redevelopment plan like this

[Ocklawaha]

Yep, Lake, we could do the plan. Bet we have a whole basement full of them somewhere downtown! LOL! We just never act on them or only do them 1/2 way.

Dallas is much deader then in the past. I went the whole streetcar line, and they opened the barn and we (my son and I) had a private tour of the collection. Tomorrow they are going to bring out the possible?=Jacksonville car, the big Turtleback and I'll go ride it. Also want to catch the TX Electric car and museum in Plano. McKinney has a nice wooden interurban car they are making a dinner-train diner out of. Something like what I'd suggest we do with a copy of our lounge cars of the early 1900's. The track work on McKinney is poor at best. But plans are in to improve the line and additions are on the way. I'll update y'all when I get back.

BTW, yes, Ft. Worth and OKC have a LOT in common, living in the shadow of "BIG - D" (which could stand for Dallas or "Big Dud") they both do a first-rate job on downtown, visitors and such. I'll be at bricktown OKC Thursday night.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Isn't the McKinney line privately funded?  Be sure to get some pictures of Bricktown.

[Ocklawaha]

Yes to both, although the McKinney is now on the DART "contribution" list, they did it to make it fare-free. It is all volunteer except for a couple of mechanics and the 7AM crews.

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

geez, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Houston, AUSTIN....what the freak is it about Texas that Florida just doesn't care to look at the maggots.

[Ocklawaha]

Austin, is a WHOLE other story Gatorback. THAT is a city with LIFE. According to Lake, Ft. Worth is better then Dallas. It gets very mixed reviews here in Plano.

I guess it's "How many times can someone visit a stockyards and cowboy stores..."

Ditto OKC, except that OKC built two entertainment districts. One is like an "advanced Jacksonville" Riverwalk on the Canal downtown. Two is at Remmington Park on the Northside, which contains about every "other" venue in the state: 45Th inf Div Military Museum, golf, zoo, aviation museum, naval museum, science museum, planetarium, Horse race downs, National Cowboy Hall of Fame, "end of the trail" statues, OK Railroad Museum, aquarium...and...I don't know, probably left a few out. Does Ft. Worth equal that?

Jacksonville has a Zoo, and a few Micro-Museums (compaired to Oklahoma), and lots of Golf.

I just don't know what the "FREAK" it is?

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Fort Worth is more than just the Stockyards District, which was a section of town similar in scale to Five Points, but older and centered around the city's meatpacking industry history.  For one, it has a vibrant downtown (Sundance Square-http://www.sundancesquare.com/).  Its also got a great collection of museums, inner city neighborhoods and parks.  It could use more rail, but Trinity is a start.  As for Plano, its nothing special.  One of my college roommates was from Plano.  Back in those days, it was the number one spot in the country for herion overdoses.  By the way, did you get a chance to check out Deep Ellum or Fair Park in Dallas?

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, the part of OKC I am talking about is WAY north of downtown. About where our own Zoo is - to downtown Jacksonville, to get an idea. But more similar in layout or "looks" then our stadium district (IF) when we ever decide to fill it out.  Oh yeah, I left out the National Softball Hall of Fame, and fields.


I haven't been in downtown Ft. Worth, yet. Trinity will take care of that. Downtown Ft Worth and Downtown, OKC sound pretty alike... but each with their own venues. At least Ft Worth kept their old depot as a depot, rather then the "Santa Fe-Osbourne-Gun Show palace". OKC kept BOTH depots but frankly made a REALLY BAD choice when they went with the Santa Fe Station downtown. True it is next to Bricktown, but it lacks in EVERY OTHER AREA. Too___________ (fill in the blank) Small, elevated, little parking etc... Union Station would have required a short shuffle move, perhaps a back in, or head in, empty and turn the train type of move. But when other trains come on line (if ever) Union Station will be where they'll go to get at the Santa Fe Station. All railroads went into UNION except the Santa Fe.

The downtown transit mall on the DART in Dallas was Dead as a duck, parking lot CITY and bare walls with paintings on them.  Like wow man - awsome...NOT!

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

I haven't been in downtown Ft. Worth, yet. Trinity will take care of that. Downtown Ft Worth and Downtown, OKC sound pretty alike... but each with their own venues. At least Ft Worth kept their old depot as a depot, rather then the "Santa Fe-Osbourne-Gun Show palace".

The best section of Downtown Fort Worth is the Sundance Square area, a few blocks northwest of the two TRE stations.  Its bounded by 6th Street on the south, Belknap on the north, Main on the east and Taylor to the West.  When I last visited, 3rd Street seemed like the heart of the Sundance Square District.  It gets pretty hot out there, so its best to visit at night. 

The ITC Station is the busiest in Fort Worth, but the old restored T&P Station is the crown jewel of the TRE system, imo.

The downtown transit mall on the DART in Dallas was Dead as a duck, parking lot CITY and bare walls with paintings on them.  Like wow man - awsome...NOT!

Most of Downtown Dallas is like Downtown Houston, a vertical office park filled with boxy 80s era office towers.  Dallas' downtown entertainment district is called the West End Marketplace.  Instead of running parallel along the light rail tracks, it runs perpendicular to them along North Market Street at DART's West End Station.  Its a strip of old brick warehouses that have been converted into restaurants, hotels, a movie theater, lofts and specialty shops.

[thelakelander]

By the way, the Fort Worth ITC station is a great example of a transportation center that works efficiently without taking up blocks and blocks of land.

[gatorback]

Have you crossed Turtle Creek lately?  I love the drive over the bridge into the sprawling estates...what is that area called?  Also, hit the botanical gardens...awesome place.

[Ocklawaha]

OKC's Garden in a glass tubular bridge

Lake Westend was about as alive as the Farmers Market on Beaver Street. A few folks here and there, but really nothing. Our Landing is at least as busy and a lot more comfortable in the heat. Sady its also empty due to poor design.

I wonder if the landing has ever considered two more horseshoes, these FACING the City? Say one on each end making the whole place more like a giant "W" from the air? I know about the idea to cut open the center but "W's" would make it big enough for a couple of anchor stores or many more shops.

Gatorback, You talking about OKC? The new developments up by "Deer Creek"? Gallaridia? Both are close on the far NW of OKC, and very pretty. I was City Councilman for the area just above Deer Creek. I'm telling you that Creek can be BAD NEWS when Spring rains come. I couldn't believe they allowed some newbies to develop the Creek bottom lands at the base of those hills. NET RESULT, lots of folks on CNN, FOX, etc...

The botanical Gardens in the center of Downtown, sits where the old Interurban Station was... Not exact but within a block or two. Anyone who has not been to OKC, The Myrid Gardens is indeed fantastic. Indoors is COLOMBIA 365/7, Waterfalls, man-made mountains, paths, orchids, tropical paradise.

Since Jacksonville seems to hire "Bubba and Earnest" (The cream of Forrest High School - both have more then 22 years of education - both have been through the 11Th grade TWICE) for planning our downtown. Since we don't seem to have EVER had an original idea, at least since the Ostrich Farm. Maybe, Maybe, we could find OKC or Ft. Worths lead guys and offer them a deal they can't refuse.


Oklahoma City Downtown or Medellin, Colombia?

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

OKC's Garden in a glass tubular bridge

Lake Westend was about as alive as the Farmers Market on Beaver Street. A few folks here and there, but really nothing. Our Landing is at least as busy and a lot more comfortable in the heat. Sady its also empty due to poor design.

West End wasn't the most happening place, but it was light years ahead of what would be its Jacksonville counterpart....the LaVilla warehouse district.  I was only in Dallas a few days, but the largest entertainment district there appeared to be Deep Ellum, which is east of downtown and has no connection with the light or commuter rail systems.

I wonder if the landing has ever considered two more horseshoes, these FACING the City? Say one on each end making the whole place more like a giant "W" from the air? I know about the idea to cut open the center but "W's" would make it big enough for a couple of anchor stores or many more shops.

Toney Sleiman had a pretty impressive plan for the Landing when he bought it about a year before the super bowl circus came to town.  It died primarily due to politics.  According to those plans, the city would have had to sell Sleiman the land underneath the shopping center and allow Sleiman to build a parking garage structure over Hogan Street dumpster area.

Plans included ripping out the interior portion to create an open pedestrian link between the courtyard and Laura Street.  The food court spots would have been relocated to face Independent Drive, with the current food court space converted into a large sit down restaurant.  Rumored tenants at the time included Cheesecake Factory, Walgreens and Barnes & Noble.  In all, the complex would have been expanded from 140,000 square feet to 1.2 million. 

In any event, we missed that opportunity when we let politics get in the way.  So instead of getting some sort of improvement done before the super bowl came to town, we're left with the same old structure that has struggled for 20 years.



Here's a bad scan of the old proposed expansion