Orlando's Wekiva Parkway: Outer Beltway's cousin won't make money either!

[thelakelander]

What's wrong with FDOT?  When will Ananth Prasad and his crew realize that they are sending taxpayers into further debt by continuing to push new roadway projects that will never pay for themselves?


Still no deal on Wekiva Parkway

Another page of the calendar apparently will turn without a deal to build the $1.8 billion Wekiva Parkway.

Officials with the state and Orlando's main road-building agencies â€" who first promised an agreement in August and then September â€" are reluctant to discuss specific holdups.

Last month, they said they were waiting on a $300,000 study on how many cars and trucks might ride on the toll road that would run from near Apopka in Orange County, through Lake and Seminole counties, and link up with Interstate 4 by Sanford.

That study came out last week and it confirmed what many experts had predicted: the Wekiva would not draw enough toll-paying customers to pay for itself for decades.

full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-no-deal-wekiva-20110926,0,665819.story

[ChriswUfGator]

The population of Apopka has exploded, and they're demanding this.

Now, silly me I know, but I'd ask WTF they were thinking when they bought a house in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture? My natural inclination would be to let it serve as an example of why that development pattern is unsustainable.

[tufsu1]

Wow....FDOT and every other agency down there has been fighting for this road for at least a decade....there were some pretty sensitive negotiations regarding the Wekiva Springs area.....I'm a bit surprised they had never done the toll ridership/revenue analysis.

That said, at this point, they've built 80% of the beltway/ring around Orlando....the Wekiva Parkway is the last leg....so from a connectivity standpoint, it should be built.

[Lunican]

From an asphalt sales standpoint, it should be built.

[thelakelander]

If it doesnt make economic sense, they should pass. Nobody is gonna die if 429 doesn't tie into I-4 in Sanford. With that said, I fully expect this road to be built. Its easier to burn $2billion here, $2billion there when you're playing with other people's money.

[tufsu1]

I would tell you that they should have passed on building most of the ring road....but it is done now and this is the missing piece.

What I learned this morning is that FDOT has done several studies in the past...and all with the same result.

The reality is that several roads on Florida's Turpike system don't make enough $ to cover their project costs....but the state makes enough $ on other roads in the syetm to offset the "dogs".

[tufsu1]

In fact, if you think about it, since weve already started building skyscrapers, we might as well finish the job off

other than Berkman II, would you build only part of a skyscaper?

or better yet, how about building only a portion of the Skyway system...then see what happens 20 years later when folks complain about ridership

[thelakelander]

The reality is that several roads on Florida's Turpike system don't make enough $ to cover their project costs....but the state makes enough $ on other roads in the syetm to offset the "dogs".

Reality would also suggest that this is money that could be used to offset the maintenance of existing roads instead of adding to the problem.

[thelakelander]

In fact, if you think about it, since weve already started building skyscrapers, we might as well finish the job off

other than Berkman II, would you build only part of a skyscaper?

In the private sector, master plans are rarely built out as originally sketched on paper due to economic and market reality.  It's time we really start looking at some of our transportation boondoggles in a similar light if we want our taxdollars to help improve the average resident's quality of life.

Just tossing it out, but there are several buildings in DT that were designed as larger structures but never fully developed as engineered due to economic reality.  Two that immediately come to mind are the Greenleaf & Crosby and the old Rosenblum's buildings.

Greenleaf & Crosby

Designed as a larger 12 story building but only one half of the tower was built due to the Great Depression.


Rosenblum's Downtown

This one was also designed to be a midrise.  However, private sector economic reality ended up with the base only being constructed.

In short, if it doesn't make sense fiscally, don't do it.

[Lunican]

It's kind of bizarre that planners are obsessed with completing beltways when they aren't even meant to be used that way. Driving in a complete circle around a city isn't really the goal, is it?

A 20 mile gap in I-95 would considered be a "missing "link" because it would undermine the purpose of the entire roadway.

[thelakelander]

Here are a few expressways/freeways that were stopped due to public opposition.  Imagine, what these places would be like today, if those highways were constructed:

Vieux Carré Riverfront Expressway (I-310) - Would have run through New Orleans' French Quarter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieux_Carr%C3%A9_Riverfront_Expressway

I-70 Baltimore - Would have run through DT Baltimore connecting with I-83 near the Inner Harbor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_70_in_Baltimore,_Maryland

Mount Hood Freeway - This planned Robert Moses freeway ended up being canceled with its funds shifted to construct LRT in Portland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hood_Freeway

I-95/I-66/I-266, etc. in Washington, DC - All eventually canceled due to public opposition against ripping new highways through established neighborhoods.  Funds for several of these canceled projects were redirected to construct the metro.  I don't think anyone today would make an argument that central DC would be better off if I-95 was built through it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_395_(District_of_Columbia-Virginia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeway_and_expressway_revolts

[Ocklawaha]

The population of Apopka has exploded, and they're demanding this.

Now, silly me I know, but I'd ask WTF they were thinking when they bought a house in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture? My natural inclination would be to let it serve as an example of why that development pattern is unsustainable.

Wekiwa Springs State Park and Seminole State Forest, the beltway cuts right through the middle.

As one who lives in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture, I'd call it Nirvanna. Noun/nərˈvänə/1. A transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma.  2. A state of perfect happiness; an ideal or idyllic place. That said, the person that moves into such a place without the desire to use local, small town businesses, is a fool.  From my perch about 5 miles south of the east end of the Shand's bridge, I can shop in Green Cove Springs, and buy groceries at WGV or Orangedale. Moving to Apopka, Oviedo, Bithlo, Howey-In-The-Hills, Ocoee, Sorrento etc. with  a plan to do all of your shopping at Milenimum or Seminole Mall, is dumb as a box of rocks.

If anyone on MJ would benefit from the convienience of the Outer Beltway, it's me, but I remain firmly opposed to the whole project with a single exception. The only redeeming value of our Beltway is a replacement of the Shand's Bridge. The bridge is quite narrow making it unsafe for auto and truck traffic and was built so low it has damaged a ship builder in Palatka. Highway 16 is already 4 lanes, so west of the bridge to US-17 already has a perfect right-of-way through the old NAS Lee Field, Navy Base. Under no condition should this highway wrap around the south side of Lee Field, doing so would kill the best location for corporate and private avation south of Jacksonville.

Having lived in Heathrow, one of the biggest problems with the Wekiva Beltway is the Wekiva Wilderness Preserves. The preserves represent one of the last major concentrations of Florida Black Bears and big cats in Central Florida and blowing a hole through them is criminal. This road will need to have elevated animal underpasses from the Wekiva River to Mount Plymouth at no small expense. Typical of Florida's blindness to anything other then another highway, over half of the proposed route is paralell to a state owned abandoned railroad. These tracks ran from Sanford-Mount Plymouth-Sorrento-Mount Dora, how much better would a DMU/RDC commuter train car be then a massive turnpike? As FDOT and it's consultants slice and dice away at whatever is left of the REAL Florida somebody needs to drawa a line in the sand. We stopped a horrible barge canal from completely ruining the OCKLAWAHA River, now perhaps it's time to stop these beltways.

The Wekiva Beltway?
Nearby Conservation Lands:

Wilson's Landing
Lower Wekiva River Preserve State Park
Seminole State Forest
Rock Spring Run State Reserve
Wekiwa Springs State Park
Wekiva River Buffer Conservation Area

PHOTO ESSAY: ACTUAL WEKIVA BELTWAY CITIZENS DEMANDING THIS TURNPIKE:

















I don't know about y'all, but it's obvious from that last photo that this path needs to be widened to 10 lanes, toll booths and massive interchanges... After all, they're demanding it in Apopka and Clay too.

OCKLAWAHA

[ChriswUfGator]

Maybe Tufsu just likes to go around in circles?

[thelakelander]

Even if someone likes to ride around in circles, the Western Beltway (429) and the Greenway (417) don't directly connect in Osceola County.  417 ties into I-4 near Celebration and Disney.  429 hits I-4 a few miles south near Champions Gate and Reunion Resort.


Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) 2030 master plan

[Jumpinjack]

This is the turnpike authority's  next dream - the Heartland Parkway cutting across Florida's last remaining agricultural lands and wildlife corridors and the Heartland Coast to Coast - the ideal opening of the rest of Florida for development. Road builders know two things - concrete and asphalt.