Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[thelakelander]

It does sound kind of childish.  There must be something going on behind closed doors that the general public doesn't know.

[north miami]

It does sound kind of childish.  There must be something going on behind closed doors that the general public doesn't know.

The Outer Beltway was born and raised in relative obscurity.

Mayor Brown would do well for all interests to draw upon your insights Lake.

[Tacachale]

This back and forth does seems strange. I wonder if we'll ever know what's going on.

[SuZi-Rok]

I think having tolls will cause more traffic in that area.

[Tacachale]

^I would have thought that too, but, according to my father who travels all over state and uses toll roads regularly, the SunPass system largely takes care of that for regular users. Obviously it's more inconvenience than no tolls, but it does mean that the roads can be subsidized by users rather than everybody.

[thelakelander]

The tolls will increase the traffic counts on local streets like Old Middleburg Road, which is a 2-lane rural road.  One of the things that bugs me about the toll road issue is that tolls don't cover the true cost of their impact on the landscape they penetrate. 


Who pays for all these future roads needed to feed traffic into the Outer Beltway?  You the taxpayer, that's who!

Widening, improving, extending local streets like Old Middleburg Road will have to subsidized by us for eternity.  Assuming unsustainable sprawl happens, we'll be on the hook for new schools, parks, police, fire, libraries, their staffs/pensions, equipment and every other thing needed to support the additional public services.  However, without investing in these items, a project like the Outer Beltway will never come close to generating the traffic/tolls it needs to meet the fuzzy projection math being promoted by FDOT.

[thelakelander]

^I would have thought that too, but, according to my father who travels all over state and uses toll roads regularly, the SunPass system largely takes care of that for regular users. Obviously it's more inconvenience than no tolls, but it does mean that the roads can be subsidized by users rather than everybody.

Coming from Central Florida, everybody pays because the tolls don't cover their true costs.  We just pay in more indirect ways.  These include constructing and maintaining local feeder roads, utilities for new development, new schools, etc.

[Tacachale]

^But the side roads, utilities for new development, etc. would have happened whether there are tolls or not. At least with tolls some part of the expense is subsidized by the toll payers.

[thelakelander]

That would be similar to saying that there's no need to have a budget or savings plan because we're going to spend money regardless.  You can't look at it that way.  We have the power to determine our growth patterns and growth doesn't necessarily equate to having to fund a significant amount of roadway construction to faciliate low density development.  With that said, I'm not against the concept of tolls.  I actually prefer them, given the amount of money we burn on roads.  They are no different than charging people to pay a fare to ride a bus or train. 

[Tacachale]

^What I'm saying is, if you're going to have a road, tolls allow some of the cost to be subsidized by the users. That doesn't mean that this or any road in particular is a good idea, only that tolls are not a bad idea, especially factoring in the new technology for them.

[thelakelander]

In general I agree. However, each project should be evaluated on its own merits. To date, it still hasn't been proven the beltway is needed or the best fiscal/economic mobility improvement for the corridor, Clay or Jacksonville. We're sweeping a large issue concerning our community's future right under the rug by tying this project into a general discussion on the validity of tolls.

[north miami]

In general I agree. However, each project should be evaluated on its own merits. To date, it still hasn't been proven the beltway is needed or the best fiscal/economic mobility improvement for the corridor, Clay or Jacksonville. We're sweeping a large issue concerning our community's future right under the rug by tying this project into a general discussion on the validity of tolls.

Agreed.And had it not been for the Toll issue there wouldn't be any elevated,readily identifiable discourse regarding community needs and issues.


Possibly it is simple as the fact that there are entrenched forces that lend or develop a sense of futility.
Certainly "Reporting" efforts have been disjointed,manipulated or plain absent.

[Dashing Dan]

If I was an advocate for this highway I think that I'd be plenty frustrated by now.

[north miami]

Many many years ago the Clay Chamber hosted Lobster dinner bash in Tallahassee during one of many Sessions that saw the very most basic aspirations for current Brannon Chaffee dashed.......

The Boosters have enjoyed slow but steady lurch forward.Few know of the historical fits and starts better than the Boosters.

[tufsu1]

If I was an advocate for this highway I think that I'd be plenty frustrated by now.

I think those opposed to this road are equally frustrated