Jacksonville mayor comes out against new toll road

[north miami]

Can't see how it would help in emergency evacuations.  Wouldn't they all ultimately funnel into an already-clogged I-95/I-10 like they did in Hurricane Floyd? 

as a result of Floyd, the state developed reverse lane strategies....as an example, I-10 west of I-295 can now be 4/6 lanes westbound in an evacuation.
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During height of impending Floyd hysteria Mayor Delaney used precious public announcement slots to tout future new roadway construction as "evacuation".Classic side step to Delaney Green Image Era pronouncement that "we can't build our way out of congestion"(FTU)

[tufsu1]

UPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

as I said, the Mayor can't do much here on his own....that said, there sure are some interesting discussions going on right now

[tufsu1]

Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

[north miami]

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-31/rick-scott-rethinking-plans-toll-first-coast-outer



If FDOT had been all gung-ho for building it in the first place, it would have been completed a long time ago.  Now that the market for new single family homes has all but dried up, it makes even less sense now.

There was an era when roadway boosters made glib reference to "DOT wants it"

Boosters included County Planners referencing the DOT Wants It mantra and in the case of Brannon Chaffee Beltway Little Back Creek Crossing,Freedom Commerce  and others this local chant was finally repudiated by DOT......DOT takes the lead from Local Government.This too would soon pass.Who here ever knew of it?

FDOT was lukewarm at best with the Beltway.Some soon to retire Lake City DOT staff persons very transparent.

[north miami]

/quote]

references will be made to conservation,cluster,percentage of "open space" which really is driven by the presence of broad wetland belts which typically total 30% or more of any given Stage Acreage.

"Mass transit"(and the future BC RW hardly discussed here) was a key promotion touted to  Sector Plan citizen participants,others.The press grew relaxed with the BC future transit RW commitment promotions.

(Of course,one key BC planning session revolved around Clay Countians "vision"for neighborhoods just like .......Avondale!!!!.....the actual demand more on the order of Rural Fringe five/ten acre...)

[Dashing Dan]

UPDATE: Brown spokesman Abel Harding confirms that the mayor did talk to Scott about the Outer Beltway earlier this week. Brown expressed concern about bring tolls back. But Harding also said Brown understands he's not in charge of this project, and can't stop it.

as I said, the Mayor can't do much here on his own....that said, there sure are some interesting discussions going on right now

Out there in asphalt-land, there must be someone with influence who doesn't want this project to go forward.

[ChriswUfGator]

Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

In terms of economic impact, farms and timberland cost the taxpayer nothing and generate a positive return in terms of sales taxes, employment, etc. Subdivisions, as you know after having your ass handed to you on this exact point 64 times by everyone from me and Stephen to Ron Barton, do not come close to paying for themselves. Low-density housing is a net negative for taxpayers, and for the economy generally given the commutes, the fact that these developments pull residents from other places, etc. You're replacing a net positive economic contribution, or at worse neutral, with a net negative, and one that we have to largely foot the bill for.

[Ocklawaha]

Thank you TU, you made my point, DENSITY MATTERS and less mindless road building through whatever is left of virgin Florida land will equal more DENSITY and less sprawl. A focus on mass transit will better serve a dense population then a 2 lane asphalt strip.

well the contrarian would say that development out there would have more density than the current undeveloped land

In the same way that Ponce De Leon, Daniel Boone or Jessie Chisholm could lay claim to being density developers. Spending the night in the Oregon forest with that sweet Native American girl produced 'density'. My desert cabin in California is certifiably 500 miles from nowhere and 2 feet from hell, but you could call it density if you want. I think we're all grown up enough to know the difference, the beltway will not create density.

OCKLAWAHA

[iMarvin]

Jennifer Carroll reiterates Outer Beltway support, says Alvin Brown now supports it as well

Gov. Rick Scott has not changed his mind on building the First Coast Outer Beltway as a toll road from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard.

But Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll says Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown has withdrawn his criticism of the Outer Beltway after meeting with state officials and learning more about the project. Brown criticized plans to toll the road two weeks ago, saying the area didn't need tolls, and the project didn't make economic sense.

Officials with the mayors office have not yet confirmed or denied Carroll's claim.

Earlier this week the Clay County Chamber of Commerce sent out an email saying Gov. Rick Scott is contemplating pulling support for the project. The email urged people to call the governor's office and express their support for building and tolling the Outer Beltway.



The email did not say why Scott might be rethinking state support. It also doesn't say how the Chamber came to learn that Scott might pull the funding, Chamber officials have declined to say why the e-mail went out.

Carroll said she believed the e-mail was sent after Brown expressed opposition to the project.

[thelakelander]

If so, lets hope he gets something out of the deal that benefits Jacksonville taxpayers because the Outer Beltway project, as proposed, does not.

[iMarvin]

I'm on the fence about this project. This is essential for future growth and the tolls should be for all new freeways, but the road is already there. And I don't see many more people moving there once the road is finished. I think the ROW should be bought but the road shouldn't be built until halfway needed.

[thelakelander]

I'm not on the fence because:

1. Its not "essential" for future growth.  There has been nothing presented to indicate that future growth can't happen without spending a total of $1.8 billion to construct the Outer Beltway and permanantly subsidize it with annual $50 million maintenance costs.

2.  I'm for tolls but the toll should be increased to cover the road's actual costs to taxpayers.  Yes, this means covering the costs needed to improve local streets feeding into it, extra police/fire/schools/parks, the public employees needed to support them and the pension costs that come along with those extra employees.

3.  Jacksonville residents have already paid for their stretch of road, with BJP dollars.  Thus, the capacity is in place to accommodate future growth in Duval County right now.  Without taking the tolls off the Jacksonville stretch, you're essentially double taxing Duval County to fund the significant upgrades needed in Clay.

4. If the road is build, Clay should not be allowed to continue building low density development along the corridor.  They should be forced to densify along this corridor as much as possible to generate extra vehicle trips and tax revenue needed to maintain it and future growth. 

5. No need to buy ROW, because the road in its current configuration isn't "needed."  There's no traffic forcasting model out there that shows our region would shrivel up and die if it isn't built.  In short, there's a huge difference between needs and wants.  This one is a want.

6. It was promoted for years as a P3 project, but the private sector continues to say no thanks because its too high of a financial risk.  Its kind of ironic that this same State Government killed HSR by claiming it was too much of a risk for taxpayers, while it had 6 or 7 private enties willing to put their money into it.  Hypocritical at best.

[thelakelander]

Oh, and unlike most in my industry (transportation engineering and planning), I'm not afraid to publicly voice my opposition to it.  Having a job is great and the company I work for could use some extra work, but as a taxpayer and Duval County resident, I'm not willing to put my job before my children, family, community and city's long term financial health.

[iMarvin]

Good points. Those are pretty hard to argue against.

[jcjohnpaint]

and why build a northwest road to help alleviate traffic moving northeast?  There is nothing, but foolishness based around this project and I am disappointed with the new mayor giving in.