Urban Retail Renaissance?

[thelakelander]

The skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway.  Two (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway.  If anything, JTA needs to sell off whatever land it has near it's remaining skyway stops and encourage TODs.  Then take the money earned and use it to enhance the skyway by finding a way to make it more accessible to the rest of the downtown core.

[Jason]

No doubt.  The remainder of the core does, however, need to be connected via a completed system.  By linking the sports district to the rest of the core, these developments and new residents will benefit immensely.

[thelakelander]

That's even a better reason to sell all excess land near the remaining skyway stops for dense TODs.  The profits made could be used to help fund the expansion of the system to other areas of downtown, which would make it more viable and user friendly for the potential projects rising next to it.

[Ocklawaha]

The skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway.

Perhaps to plan, break ground, do construction, this is true. However, once completed, without REAL transit just getting into and out of these places will make them play second to anything in the Burbs. We MetroJacksonville types all love the City, the downtown etc. But many do not give a chirp in a carload about location. The whole "draw" will come down to, "What do they have to sell?" and "How easy can I get in and out?" In both cases without the Skyway completed, without decent park and ride, without any real "system" in downtown, they probably won't last long. THIS IS JTA'S FAULT! They are in charge of being our "experts" and they have utterly failed downtown Jacksonville. Their newest plans are only going to make things much, much worse.

Two (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway.

Yes, I noted this, it would make a good study to see which centers do the best, 1/2 transit based or the no transit based.  It would be interesting if the developers are allowed to be maverick enough to do some REAL foward thinking. Example, build "AROUND" the Skyway line, IE: the Skyway will go THROUGH the buildings. Not a bus, not a BRT bus, not a articulated bus, if anything they will kill the hotel, theater and cafe's on the walk. The Skyway was sold to us because it is CLEAN, and ELECTRIC,  and ABOVE THE TRAFFIC. Though it has turned out to be a hundred million dollar turkey, no small part of that failure lays with the agency that built half of it then abandoned the technology to chase another dead end rainbow. This comes from the guy that was the largest thorn in the side of the Skyway in it's planning stages. Now in a limited sense, I am perhaps it's best friend. Sort of like loving the old Edsel... While the car is nearly worthless, once built and delivered, one might as well try and figure a way to keep the chrome polished.

   If anything, JTA needs to sell off whatever land it has near it's remaining skyway stops and encourage TODs.

Again, you know I agree on this one, JTA doesn't need to be one of the largest land owners in the City, when our bus system lags behind GAINESVILLE and ST. PETE! If JTA knew what a TOD was they might have a chance to encourage TOD's. Their BRT based idea, that anything built near ANY form of transportation equates to a TOD is insane. But then the BRT boys had to bend the rules in order to claim they could develop TOD's with buses. Bottom line, if the Skyway is NOT completed to the Stadium, San Marco, and Riverside, we would be better off breaking it up and hauling it out to enhance the Jettys. At least at the mouth of the river it might assist the port. Meanwhile, to continue to charge a "fine" to park near these downtown venues without extending a FREE SKYWAY ride to them, will result in a killer tax. Maybe we need a slogan for downtown development, might I suggest, "JUST ASK SEARS ROEBUCK"...

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

The skyway needs these developments more than they need the skyway.

Perhaps to plan, break ground, do construction, this is true. However, once completed, without REAL transit just getting into and out of these places will make them play second to anything in the Burbs. We MetroJacksonville types all love the City, the downtown etc. But many do not give a chirp in a carload about location. The whole "draw" will come down to, "What do they have to sell?" and "How easy can I get in and out?" In both cases without the Skyway completed, without decent park and ride, without any real "system" in downtown, they probably won't last long. THIS IS JTA'S FAULT! They are in charge of being our "experts" and they have utterly failed downtown Jacksonville. Their newest plans are only going to make things much, much worse.

These aren't SJTC type regional centers.  There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites.  There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.

Two (Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park) will have direct connections to the Skyway.

Yes, I noted this, it would make a good study to see which centers do the best, 1/2 transit based or the no transit based.  It would be interesting if the developers are allowed to be maverick enough to do some REAL foward thinking. Example, build "AROUND" the Skyway line, IE: the Skyway will go THROUGH the buildings.

Neither plans to build around and over the skyway.  However, a study using the skyway as "transit" will probably not return decent results since the skyway (in its current state) is a poor example of transit.

Again, you know I agree on this one, JTA doesn't need to be one of the largest land owners in the City, when our bus system lags behind GAINESVILLE and ST. PETE! If JTA knew what a TOD was they might have a chance to encourage TOD's. Their BRT based idea, that anything built near ANY form of transportation equates to a TOD is insane. But then the BRT boys had to bend the rules in order to claim they could develop TOD's with buses. Bottom line, if the Skyway is NOT completed to the Stadium, San Marco, and Riverside, we would be better off breaking it up and hauling it out to enhance the Jettys. At least at the mouth of the river it might assist the port. Meanwhile, to continue to charge a "fine" to park near these downtown venues without extending a FREE SKYWAY ride to them, will result in a killer tax. Maybe we need a slogan for downtown development, might I suggest, "JUST ASK SEARS ROEBUCK"...[/color][/b]

Ocklawaha

Imo, JTA should leave the transit oriented development planning up to the professionals.

[Ocklawaha]

These aren't SJTC type regional centers.  There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites.  There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.

Accessible from I-10/I-95 is great IF you can get there from here. The trouble I see is a lack of access, lack of parking, high parking rates and a fine for parking on the street. All of these equal "Neanderthal Planning" at the City and JTA levels. Downtown has perhaps 5,000 residents M/L in the urban core (once things get built) but will a community of 5,000 support a super theater complex, mall and such without outside help? I doubt it. If it could, every little Midwestern and Southwestern "ville" from Ohio to New Mexico, would have one. Many of these places have far more then 5,000 to draw from, and they don't nail you with fines for parking. Some even have transit, and a few even have LRT or more advanced transit. I would buy into the easy access IF JTA were to build a parking facility alongside the freeway, with dedicated ramps and a built in Skyway or Transit station. So far, JTA is the World leader in how NOT TO PLAN such a facility.

The Kings Avenue Station and Parking Garage in San Marco/Southbank are a prime example of STUPID Transit Planning. The banner reads "PARK HERE!" (to visit downtown is implied). Trouble is, the nearest exit is Emerson Street!! Then God help you unless you are a Jacksonville lifer, to find you way to the garage... Oh there is a ramp at Prudential or Mary Street, but WTF? You would already be downtown before you exit to go BACKWARDS to the dumb garage location. Hello? Anyone home at JTA? With these same folks doing the plan for the Easy Access in Fairfield, or Brooklyn or where ever, we are so screwed.

Neither plans to build around and over the skyway.  However, a study using the skyway as "transit" will probably not return decent results since the skyway (in its current state) is a poor example of transit.

So right Lake, if the Skyway were even what they promised us back in 1980, it would soar above where it is today. We don't have an Edsel, we have 1/2 of an Edsel, and JTA promised us a "FREE" Rolls Royce. Just trust in the JTA experts and our Transit problems would be solved forever. Now, it looks like only MetroJacksonville and our tiny band of brothers is willing to hold their feet to the fire, City Hall and Media are warming to the glow of their latest Boondoggle. Future students at UNF's renowned school of Transportation and Logistics will be able to click on the link for "STUPID" and JTA or an image of Downtown Jacksonville will appear...

Imo, JTA should leave the transit oriented development planning up to the professionals.

Again, we are on the same page. But in our most Republican of Cities, we plan to have a system of Socialized Transit Oriented Places. JTA will buy out the private sector, they will build the C-store, laundry mat, and newstand and attach it to our 100 acre transit stops. They will make it work, and YOU WILL LIKE IT! Our glorious leaders will thus show the World the superiority of the Jacksonville System, over the damned Capitalists! I'll tell you Lake, not even Uncle Joe Stalin or Chairman Mao, could have cooked up a worse plan then what JTA has in store for our fair City.

Today our citizens sleep. In the 1960's we would all be in the street DEMANDING they do what they promised. Sometimes I miss those days.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

These aren't SJTC type regional centers.  There market isn't dependent on attracting suburbanites.  There's enough density and population in the urban core to support them already and the sites are easily accessible from I-10/I-95.

Accessible from I-10/I-95 is great IF you can get there from here. The trouble I see is a lack of access, lack of parking, high parking rates and a fine for parking on the street. All of these equal "Neanderthal Planning" at the City and JTA levels. Downtown has perhaps 5,000 residents M/L in the urban core (once things get built) but will a community of 5,000 support a super theater complex, mall and such without outside help? I doubt it. If it could, every little Midwestern and Southwestern "ville" from Ohio to New Mexico, would have one. Many of these places have far more then 5,000 to draw from, and they don't nail you with fines for parking. Some even have transit, and a few even have LRT or more advanced transit. I would buy into the easy access IF JTA were to build a parking facility alongside the freeway, with dedicated ramps and a built in Skyway or Transit station. So far, JTA is the World leader in how NOT TO PLAN such a facility.

Both will supply their own parking.  When I mention "the urban core", I'm including Riverside, Avondale, Springfield, San Marco, East Jax, Durkeeville, Brooklyn, Downtown, Murray Hill, etc.  The Brooklyn/LaVilla locations for commercial development are more accessible then heading to the Southside, Regency area or Clay County.  The urban core's population is high enought to support retail catering to it.

Brooklyn Park site plan (parking garages in gray)

The Kings Avenue Station and Parking Garage in San Marco/Southbank are a prime example of STUPID Transit Planning. The banner reads "PARK HERE!" (to visit downtown is implied). Trouble is, the nearest exit is Emerson Street!! Then God help you unless you are a Jacksonville lifer, to find you way to the garage... Oh there is a ramp at Prudential or Mary Street, but WTF? You would already be downtown before you exit to go BACKWARDS to the dumb garage location. Hello? Anyone home at JTA? With these same folks doing the plan for the Easy Access in Fairfield, or Brooklyn or where ever, we are so screwed.[/color][/b]

No doubt, I don't understand how it passed the conceptual stage with it's inaccessible location for commuters.

[alohameisha]

And there is perfectly good retail/ food space in the Everbank building and not one unt is occupied, unless you count the bank on the ground floor. What up with that? A lunch joint would make a killing (if I had money to invest.) That place Johnny's across the street is packed Mon- Fri 11:30-2 and the food is ok. The area is Brooklyn Park ajacent and on the proposed trolley line. Just an FYI for those with the wallet.

[Lunican]

Ouch, no mention of retail in Uptown Springfield?

A bunch of developers and business owners there are spending close to $40k on a retail corridor study. Even Hionedes is participating, and Cesery starts his project at Main/3rd in Feb 08. Street is being torn up now, and in 18-24 mos, I hope there will be nicer looking street AND retail.

I think 18 to 24 months for the Springfield Main St project is very optimistic. It will probably take at least 3 years, and in that time you will likely see the current businesses close down. These projects are well known for killing off businesses.

Also, even after the project is complete, the medians will make the businesses inaccessible to half the people driving through.

[thelakelander]

Wow, its going on 48 months since that prediction.  Just goes to show sometimes these things take time. 

[duvaldude08]

Bay street station is dead isnt? I thought that was a wrap?

[Seraphs]

What did I miss has the dead been resurrected?