Transportation Transition Team - ANSWER THE POLL

[duvaldude08]

-Skyway Improvements. I put this one further down because even though its needed, it will likely be pretty expensive & therefor harder to implement. We should fix the core basics first then finish it off with a Skyway expansion. Plus you'll get better support for it.

I totally agree. Also, the skyway expansion can not be effectively implemented until downtown has a plan out in place. Once downtown has a true plan, the skyway can use that to plan for the expansion.

[duvaldude08]

Hey OCK I have a question, in regard to street cars, where would they be housed?  I know where the skyways cars are now, the street cars used to be. I guess they would be housed at the transportation center?

[Ocklawaha]

Because the fleet is likely to be a mix of authentic reproductions and actual historic period cars, I'd love to see it somewhere near the freeway complete with gift shop, museum, barn and restoration facility. Somewhere near Beaver, Union or State and Davis or Lee would be perfect, somewhere on Forrest would also work fine but it's more confusing to get to for long distance travelers.

Of course I'm just one voice and nothing official, so it will probably get stuck in Brooklyn next to the Skyway Facility which is a poor site for visitors. I don't think anyone at the transportation authority or the city really "gets it" when it comes to a hybrid TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM-OPERATING MUSEUM concept. It's the last hope of doing something unique with our streetcars.

I have seen or heard no plans to keep streetcars or buses at the JRTC though commuter rail cars might spend occasional nights there.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Even though I really want to see the skyway expansion and commuter rail, I voted for streetcar because it is one that I believe we can do locally without involving state or federal politics (and JTA).

I voted for the streetcar too. A straight shot from the Prime Osborn to a spot near the Stadium down Bay Street. I just believe that you bring the 3 big rail players and just ask and seek guidance on dividing the length of the rail that will be needed into 3 sections. Have a contest.  CSX, FEC, who is another one?

I don't pretend to be a rail guy but just one thought. Start with the Shipyards property. The straight shot down Bay and then when you get to the Shipyards what if you then bring the track around the perimeter of the bulkheaded improvements with a setback of 10', 20' 30' that is up for total debate. But what you have done is guaranty an additional visual public access corridor along the river.

The 3 big railroad guys can then break this area in three equal sections. Have the CSX rail team, The FEC rail team, The vacant property can store supplies, and it would just be good practice and knock some of the kinks out it before you would have to get into road closures and a lot more logistics. I know personally I'd volunteer to lay a section of track. Singles and not the big homerun.

I seriously doubt that the railroads would want to get involved in any aspect of streetcars or light rail development. If it's materials that we seek, their rail is WAY too heavy for streetcar use 132 pounds per yard to 90 pounds per yard would be a typical comparison.

I also don't see Bay Street involved with the streetcar at any point except Bay between Myrtle and Lee. The Skyway rightfully has staked a claim to Bay and some engineering has been done. Sending the streetcar under the Skyway would result in needless duplication of services. That said however I would think that WATER-INDEPENDENCE between Newnan and Lee would be a natural, with an eventual return loop on DUVAL and MONROE streets, again between Newnan and Lee.

Streetcar can be done very fast and because of the light rails and equipment it doesn't need the excavation that regular railroads would need in the street. Streetcars will weigh in at between 25,000 and 75,000 pounds while a CSX locomotive weighs in excess of 300,000 pounds.

OCKLAWAHA

[wsansewjs]

I want to add that this time of the post. If you would please divide your attention by turning your head to your right and you will see the poll result shows a MIDDLE finger basically the streetcar option giving the lovely birde chirping at JTA.

That is all. Rock on, Uncle Ockie!

-Josh

[Jdog]

IMHO, streetcar more easily spurs development and activity compared to the skyway.  I just get a bit uneasy seeing a streetcar line duplicating some of the skyway line - coming out of the convention center and down Bay past Central Station. 

[Dapperdan]

Ock,
I am inclining to vote for the skyway expansion. I have a question though. Can the skyway be built cheaper if the expansion drops the rails to the ground in certain areas that allow it? is that even possible with a skyway/ monorail type system?

[PhanLord]

i don't think that our skyway uses a rail system that is suitable for ground level. no vehicle will be able to cross it.
but i might be wrong

[JeffreyS]

It could certainly be cheaper if we went to a single elevated beam.  No fancy sidings one beam handling both directions direction with short passing zones.

[Tacachale]

I couldn't vote for skyway expansion. I want it to be expanded, but I think we'll be hamstrung in how we go about that. More than any of the other options, we'd be hearing from the naysayers at every step of the way in skyway expansion. And whatever we do, the first leg of expansion had better increase ridership substantially, or else I don't see the public having enough confidence in it to support any further expansion any time soon.

[wsansewjs]

Ock,
I am inclining to vote for the skyway expansion. I have a question though. Can the skyway be built cheaper if the expansion drops the rails to the ground in certain areas that allow it? is that even possible with a skyway/ monorail type system?

The issue with Skyway and changing its steep level grades is that the trains doesn't have the full capability of keeping up with the strength going uphill even fully loaded. Correct me if I am wrong, but would the riders want to get jinxed from going up and down sharply.

If this can be built, it would be a really really really long level grade like the Acosta Bridge as an example.  I wouldn't recommend creating a Skyway crossing where the cars would cross because it would be suicide and defeat the whole purpose of a safe and precise monorail system.

I also agree that Walt Disney World's Monorail System is one of the best working systems in the world with exception of the incident with that poor kid.

-Josh

[iMarvin]

Can't the skyway be expanded without support. I mean, as long as JTA gets the money and wants to do it, can't they? A lot of the citizens of Jacksonville are so critical on everything that is done here. If they listen to those poeple, nothing will ever get done.

[Noone]

IMHO, streetcar more easily spurs development and activity compared to the skyway.  I just get a bit uneasy seeing a streetcar line duplicating some of the skyway line - coming out of the convention center and down Bay past Central Station. 

Jdog, I hear you with that duplication. But next on my list would have been moving the Amtrack station to the Prime Osborn. More tourists.

At the last River Summit a presentor Kim Delaney from south Florida ( I like her) spoke about transporting an Amtrack  railroad car not only with passengers but also an additional car that could be loaded with bikes. Tourism!

Ock, the requirements then for rail lines being less for load is good. So who are three street car rail companies that you would use? Do you have a contact person or number? Sidenote next time your at the VA go and check out the Streetcar pole or railroad light pole behind the St. Lukes Hospital next to Hogans Creek.

[arb]

Modern Streetcar, FTW! 

[Ocklawaha]

Modern Streetcar, while very cool, simply costs too much to consider right now. A heritage streetcar line once it's up and operating will support a modern streetcar, but its faster and cheaper to build, so... if you get my drift.

Single beam on the Skyway is the way to go once it is clear of downtown, anything south of the current Kings Avenue Station, East of Berkman, West of the Jacksonville Terminal, a riverside line would probably have to have the sound barrier walls.

The Skyway would be cheaper on the ground but it CAN NOT be crossed by pedestrian or automobile (reason number 6765 of why I told Mayor Jake NOT TO BUILD IT. It can handle the grades up to and as steep as any bus could. It also would have to be fenced to prevent anyone from touching the 3rd rail (600 volts DC) and turning themselves into a french-fry. Single track would work on the ends of the system for economy and could be built with the bents in place to support a future second beam.

Lastly no matter what you choose, the Skyway has resulted in at least 3 major developments. The Hilton, Wachovia Building and Omni all credit the Skyway for their presence.


OCKLAWAHA