The "Homeless" Problem in St. Petersburg, Could We Do This?

[sheclown]

Stephen, you're so Thoreau.

Agreed and agreed and agreed.

We live in an age where it is totally acceptable to pay a dollar for a plastic bottle of water and we wonder why we are in financial crisis.

[billy]

What group or organization has the greatest financial ability or potential to deal with helping
the true homeless?

[sheclown]

Churches throughout the city

[sheclown]

Your reference to Jesus is not only false, but a fallacy in that it is an appeal to emotion, rather than reason.  The verse you quote is Jesus explaining the call to dicipleship and the cost of that call.  Our Saviour was not homeless, He endured hardship for us, and chose poverty to teach us.  Jesus had more than a profession or calling.  The Son of Man came to save us all.  I find a comparison to the Hemming Plaza crowd ... disconcerting.  Similarly, to compare the arrest of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane to an arrest for aggressive panhandling or curb drinking is, I hope, an act of ignorance on your part.  If you are not familiar with the Passion then I must inform you that it had nothing to do with homelessness.

You are discounting my statement regarding my faith b/c it appeals to emotion rather than reason? 

The call to discipleship is nothing if not to further these two commandments:  Love God and Love Your Neighbor.

Cities which inact policies that criminalize homelessness are (IMHO) directly in opposition to these commandments and I can hardly believe anyone would think otherwise.

It is the city government, not JSO, ultimately responsible for this.  I am not a cop-hater and don't make me out to be. 

[sheclown]

If a person is arrested for peeing in public but has no other place to relieve himself, how can this be tolerated by a compassionate society?  Where are the public bathrooms for the homeless to use?  If they are arrested for hanging out in the park, how will you separate the homeless from the other park attendees?  By their appearance?  How's that going to work for us? 

All martyrs die quite simply for standing up for their belief in direct opposition to the authority of the day.  This is why Jesus died.

He certainly was homeless, a transient who wandered proclaiming his belief in direct opposition to the authority of the day. 

And I'm quite sure he pee'd outside.

While I don't see the homeless in Hemming Park as martyrs, I certainly see persecuting them for their homelessness and enacting policies which criminalize their status having the potential to elevate them to martyrdom.

[NotNow]

Sheclown,  what serves the goal of "love your neighbor" more, providing shelter, restrooms, showers, and employment services or allowing any and all to live and campout in our public parks?  

For about the umpteenth time, I will repeat a fact that you guys seem to just ignore...the City of St. Petersburg is providing ample shelter, food, restrooms, showers, and employment services for any citizen who is truly homeless.  

What is really happening here is that a very small segment of society is demanding to camp out in our taxpayer financed public venues.  This small segment is denying the use of these properties by creating conditions that no civilized parent or citizen would abide.  They are doing this despite any effort by those same taxpayers to provide proper facilities and adequate services for that segment.  In St. Petersburg's example, arrests are made based on behaviors, not appearance or other imagined slights.

I hesitate to discuss religious matters, as we all have our own relationship with God.  I will state my opinion that any comparison of our modern transient problem with "martyrdom" is pretty outrageous and makes no sense to me.  Jesus did not oppose any political authority, but presented a challenge to the religious structure of the day.  He did not seek an earthly kingdom, but sought to establish a spiritual kingdom.  The religious leaders of the day, who were NOT the civil authority, opposed Jesus's claim to be the Son of God and feared his popularity.  To compare the path of Jesus with our modern transient problem is .... not accurate, to say the least, IMHO.

I admire your compassion, but I urge you to channel that compassion into efforts that will REALLY help those that need your compassion.  Remember the Chinese proverb, "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

[sheclown]

Notnow, we agree that facilities need to be available for the homeless.  We also agree (I believe) that they needn't be all located downtown.

Where we disagree is with compelling people to go to the shelter or go to jail under threat of arrest.

And we see Jesus in different ways --

And I do believe in teaching men to fish -- If you knew me, you'd understand that.

[sheclown]

I hesitate to discuss religious matters, as we all have our own relationship with God.  I will state my opinion that any comparison of our modern transient problem with "martyrdom" is pretty outrageous and makes no sense to me.  Jesus did not oppose any political authority, but presented a challenge to the religious structure of the day.  He did not seek an earthly kingdom, but sought to establish a spiritual kingdom. The religious leaders of the day, who were NOT the civil authority, opposed Jesus's claim to be the Son of God and feared his popularity.  To compare the path of Jesus with our modern transient problem is .... not accurate, to say the least, IMHO.

I'm no biblical scholar, but it is my understanding that the political authority for Jesus would have been the  Jewish leaders of his time.  The Romans left the governance of the Jews to their religious leaders. 

[DeadGirlsDontDance]

Day centers scattered throughout Duval County is what is needed.  I'm not a big fan of Walmart social services, prefer moms and pops -- faith based, but that's just me.

Phillips Highway would be a great place to locate a nice sized day center.  There are plenty of rundown stores and warehouses, on the bus lines, could offer showers and bathrooms and lunch.  Internet for job searches. 

Could be cheap and simple and downtown's burden could be greatly reduced.

Put smaller ones on major bus routes and hand out a special bus token like the ones for the disabled.

We could have "magnet" day centers...ones with washer/dryers or ones with internet or ones with case workers for mental health consults. 

Give the homeless special IDs that scan to open the doors to get in so you can track who is where. Let them "buy" food at the drop in centers so you know what services they are using and where. 

There's a JTA transit hub at Gateway Mall, which appears to be mostly empty and dead except for the food stamp and WorkSource offices. Hmmmm.

[sheclown]

Dead girls, you are right.  That would be awesome.

[NotNow]

I have no doubt of your good heart, sheclown. 

The Jewish political authority was King Herod.

[sheclown]

•The Jews understood the world to be divided into two types of people: Jewish and Gentile (non-Jew). The Jews worked hard to disassociate themselves from the Gentiles.
•The Jewish people accepted their freedom in both their governing system, and in maintaining their own traditions, yet the Roman government required that everything be ultimately subject to Roman authority. For example, Jewish citizens were under the authority of the Jewish court system (the Sanhedrin), yet all rulings for the death penalty were sent to the Roman government.
•The Jewish religious and governing system was divided between two parties: the Pharisees â€" the ‘people’s party’, taught the law and traditions of Israel’s patriarchs, and were strictly conforming to Jewish law; and the Sadducees â€" the wealthy and conservative leaders who rejected the traditions in favor of political and religious cooperation with the Romans.

http://www.jesuscentral.com/ji/historical-jesus/jesus-firstcenturycontext.php?ccZ=&vrZ=&llid=&lgZ=en&scZ=&add=Read&show=Editor

When Jesus went against the Jewish religious leaders of the time, he was going against his government.

[NotNow]

For about the umpteenth time, I will repeat a fact that you guys seem to just ignore...the City of St. Petersburg is providing ample shelter, food, restrooms, showers, and employment services for any citizen who is truly homeless.  

What is really happening here is that a very small segment of society is demanding to camp out in our taxpayer financed public venues.  This small segment is denying the use of these properties by creating conditions that no civilized parent or citizen would abide.  They are doing this despite any effort by those same taxpayers to provide proper facilities and adequate services for that segment.  In St. Petersburg's example, arrests are made based on behaviors, not appearance or other imagined slights.

1.  Do you personally guarantee that showers and restrooms are being 'amply provided', by the City of St. Petersburg, notnow?

2.  The small segment of society is allowed to use all taxpayer financed public venues.  You seem to be calling them 'taxpayer financed' venues in an effort to distract from the fact that they are owned by the public.

That means all of us. Not some of us. No one has the right to deny the public access to its own possessions.  If people choose not to use them because they do not want to associate with other members of the public, then that is their right.

But you do not have the right to pick and choose which of the Public is preferential.  You are literally trying to deny people access to their own belongings.

1.  I am relying on the article, as we all are.  The article makes it clear that the need has been met.  If you feel differently, then post any such evidence.

2.  They are taxpayer financed AND public.  And we have every right to regulate their use.  We regulate the use of our roads and who can drive on them, we regulate the telephone and television cable infrastructure, we regulate our football, baseball, and basketball venues, we closely regulate our schools and public buildings.  Many military installations cannot be visited by the public.  The purpose of parks and sidewalks is NOT to house people, but to provide green space and walkable space as well as to honor past events, people, or events.  These venues are being denied to responsible parents and citizens for their daily use by this small segment of society, the behavior of which we would not tolerate anywhere else.  Being "homeless" or "transient" or "addicted" does not relieve one of the responsibility to conform to community based and sanitary standards.  

While we should not "force" anyone to take advantage of the charity offered by a city's citizens, we can certainly protect our assets from misuse and desecration.  It is not a question of "association", it is a question of personal safety and sanitation as well as community standards of conduct.  The people who are being denied use of their "belongings" is those of us who wish to bring our children and families into these venues, who wish to walk unmolested on our downtown sidewalks without stepping in human waste or exposing our children and families to exposure of genitalia, outward and scary manifestations of mental illness, and drug and alcohol addiction.  

While I am sure that we all agree that services should be offered, we also have a responsibility to ALL of the citizens of a city to ensure equal and proper use and access to any public venue.  No one is "picking and choosing", they are requiring compliance with universal rules of public behavior and the proper use of public property for which it is designed and intended.

What possible reason do you have for insisting that the "homeless" live outside in public parks, without proper sanitation, without services, while denying access to the rest of the citizens of the city?

[sheclown]

Yes, but the point is that the Jewish people were governed by their own religious leaders making the religious leaders ...well...their government.  So, to Notnow's point that Jesus was not a threat to the government of that time is inaccurate.  He was highly critical of his Jewish goverment and the hypocrisy that the religious leaders lived especially the Sadducees.

I think there are plenty of Sadducees walking around downtown Jacksonville now.  Religious leaders who hold political power and who cross to the other side of the street to avoid the beaten traveler.

[sheclown]

@ Notnow, we all wish for public restrooms, places for homeless people to take care of their most human needs.  

We all wish for significant and meaningful occupation for lost souls wandering around.

Point is, how do we get there?  Many of us would feel more comfortable if force wasn't used against already marginalized people.