The "Homeless" Problem in St. Petersburg, Could We Do This?

[NotNow]

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The major cause of "homelessness", drug and alcohol addiction,

Really?  Interesting.  Would love to see your facts regarding this.  Or is this some sort of "I see it a lot and I've read other articles about seeing it, but I haven't seen any statistics on it".  The fact is, only 2% of the homeless are actually visible to the public.  Now, I know you wouldn't make a judgment on a group of people from just 2%.  It's easy to sit there and blame drug and alcohol problems without knowing the full extent of the problem.  Treating all homeless for drug and alcohol problems and not for any mental issues that might be leading to self-medication is not going to solve anything.  Treat the symptom not the disease.  

Now, as to the article, I have a few thoughts.  Every time I see one of these articles I have to ask myself, is this an idea of dealing with a situation that does not attack the situation itself?  It sounds wonderful right?  We're removing the problem from our sight, and if we can't see it, it's not a problem right?  All cured.  But we haven't cured anything or really addressed any problems.  The problem isn't that we need to enforce these laws; it’s that we've abandoned the homeless community and the systems in place to deal with the homeless community.  We've gutted mental health facilities, defunded programs, and removed safety nets.  

What this article is suggesting is a criminalization of homelessness.   Study after study shows that this is not only a bad policy for dealing with the problem, but it’s bad fiscal policy.  For instance: back in 2004 the Blueprint to End Homelessness stated that over a 12 month period: 1,564 arrests we made at a cost of $764 per arrest (most for trespassing), at the conservative cost of $59 per day it cost the city of Jax roughly 5 million.  Now, imagine what that 5 million could have done in preventative measures.

We had a blueprint to end homelessness formulated years ago.  We committed ourselves to it, and worked with it for almost 5 years, when we inexplicably decided to get away from it.   Time to stop with the grandstanding and political football that is the poor and homeless.  Let’s do something that actually works.  We can do this.  But it starts with not vilifying the poor and the homeless.

From the National Coalition for the Homeless:

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/addiction.pdf

Substance abuse is often a cause of homelessness. Addictive disorders disrupt relationships with family and friends and often cause people to lose their jobs. For people who are already struggling to pay their bills, the onset or exacerbation of an addiction may cause them to lose their housing. A 2008 survey by the United States Conference of Mayors asked 25 cities for their top three causes of homelessness. Substance abuse was the single largest cause of homelessness for single adults (reported by 68% of cities). Substance abuse was also mentioned by 12% of cities as one of the top three causes of homelessness for families. According to Didenko and Pankratz (2007), two-thirds of homeless people report that drugs and/or alcohol were a major reason for their becoming homeless.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bridges, the measures outlined in the article are not meant to "cure" homelessness.  They are meant to combat using our public venues as bedrooms and bathrooms.  As the article points out, public facilities must be available to house and service the "homeless" before any enforcement action can be taken.  All that they are trying to do is to preserve our public places for the use of ALL citizens for the purposes that they were designed.  Everyone, including the homeless, are better off under such conditions.

[NotNow]

Sounds like the kind of scary authoritarian kind of government action that is specifically forbidden by the US Constitution to me.

Luckily I know that my friend, notnow will be fearlessly against this kind of liberty infringing anti constitutional nonsense.

This is a local government that is providing shelter and services for the homeless population.  They are reserving public venues for ALL citizens for the use for which they were intended.  What "right" do you think someone is infringing upon?

[sheclown]

Sounds like the kind of scary authoritarian kind of government action that is specifically forbidden by the US Constitution to me.

Luckily I know that my friend, notnow will be fearlessly against this kind of liberty infringing anti constitutional nonsense.

I agree Stephen. I have a question though. It seems that homelessness is wide spread (not just a Jacksonville issue or tampa/st pete issue), in your opinon, what is the best solution?

Rooming Houses used to be in every city.  Folks could rent a room at a reasonable rate in a homelike enviroment.  Then rooming houses, poorly supervised, became crackhouses and cities across the country began zoning them out. 

People are homeless b/c they can't afford the rent on an apartment, the utilities and their down payment and etc.

And jobs don't pay daily anymore.  Even if one finds a job tomorrow, he won't get a paycheck for a couple of weeks.

Mental illness, drug addiction, post traumatic stress from various life situations, illness, umemployment all add into the mix.

The missions are beyond capacity.  If all of the homeless went to shelter it would be bedlam.  Not enough beds to go around.

[sheclown]

Most homeless folks that I have talked to are extremely afraid of sleeping outdoors.  But after awhile, (seems like a year or so) something happens and then the chronically homeless get sort of a claustrophia when they are inside.

I can't imagine making homelessness criminal and I would be very afraid to arrest anyone for being so (afraid in a losing-my-soul-forever type of way).

Mostly, the homeless people I have talked to just want to die.

[NotNow]

Sheclown, I understand your sentiment and I admire your sensitivity to the issue.  What St. Pete has done is to expand their homeless shelter and homeless services so that they can meet the need.  Then they have not outlawed homelessness, but sleeping, storing personal goods, urinating,  and defecating on public property have been outlawed.  This allows for a better quality of life for both the homeless and the public, who can once again enjoy their public places in the way they were meant to be enjoyed. 

To call such actions "heartless" is to ignore the facts.  It is not "heartless" to provide a home, hygiene, and job assistance to the homeless.  It is not "heartless" to allow businesses to operate without having to pick up trash and clean human waste every morning.  It is "heartless" to allow (or even advocate for) the homeless to languish in doorways and city parks.  Whether this is due to addictions, mental illness, or ignorance is beside the point.  The laws in the article will only apply to a small number of the people we are discussing.  Many of the aggressive panhandlers are not "homeless" at all but simply choose to beg.  This is almost always the case for the "highway" beggars at the interstate ramps. 

You are right that single room occupancies are becoming harder to find.  That is because those occupancies have become difficult to maintain and avoid criminality.  It is a problem that our shelters are addressing.

Take a realistic look at the individuals that are roaming the sidewalks downtown, Hemming plaza, and other "homeless" gathering places.  I have dealt with these spots for years throughout downtown and Springfield.  I am aware of the personal history of many of the individuals who spend their time in these areas.  I don't talk to many that want to die, although there are a plethora of complaints.  I have a clean conscience.  I have done what I can to help those that need help, and I have done what I can to ensure that those that seek to take advantage of others get what they deserve.  I don't claim to be "all knowing" or an expert on homelessness, but I am not blind or stupid either.

[sheclown]

You cannot work a job and live in a shelter.  You must be in line before 3 oclock to get a bed.  Some of those who are sleeping in the weeds actually are working and must make the cruel choice of giving up their job to go to a shelter.  It is a step back to have their basic needs met.

This discussion always returns to day shelters -- a place to have the (non-working) homeless safe during the day so that they are not a nuisance to downtown businesses.  After all, people rarely complain about the homeless sleeping outside at night.  It is the presence during the day which is upsetting to business and an unreasonable demand on our fragile city.

I had a business on Main Street.  I understand the problems of homelessness.  I also gave out t-shirts to folks who had their last small bag of belongings thrown out by JSO.

It would be much better for everyone concerned to have day shelters and to change the way the current shelters are run allowing for lines to start at 6:00 for an evening's bed.

We are very blessed to have the shelters that we do have.  But there is a gap --

[sheclown]

...and he was also arrested.

a friend posted this on facebook this morning --

[NotNow]

Sounds like the kind of scary authoritarian kind of government action that is specifically forbidden by the US Constitution to me.

Luckily I know that my friend, notnow will be fearlessly against this kind of liberty infringing anti constitutional nonsense.

I agree Stephen. I have a question though. It seems that homelessness is wide spread (not just a Jacksonville issue or tampa/st pete issue), in your opinon, what is the best solution?

Restoring our middle class to the levels it reached by the late 1950s.  Reinvesting the obscene expenditures that presently build highways to the suburbs into affordable housing that supports single income families.  Restoring the safety nets, pumping money into re education, education, and treatment of mental illness.  Creating urban farming projects on a grand scale, restoring the county extension offices of the department of agriculture, including the canneries, making sustainable skills (which used to be called "Home Ec" and "Four H" programs) a mandatory part of education at all levels, from elementary school to high school graduation.

I would restore volunteer voucher programs for civic projects, build a day center with free public showers and plenty of bathrooms, I would try and treat the homeless that come here as an asset rather than a liability.  I would create dormitories, and transitional facilities.  I would completely remove them as a revenue source for the sheriff's department by taking them out of the jails and putting them to work.

I would set up an aggressive program of reconnecting travelling drifters with their families and returning them to their homes and communities, and I would provide mental health care along the same lines that San Diego does.

And it would still be cheaper than our present method of putting them in jail and destroying the downtown tax base.

So when are we going to start Stevens campaign for council?

  PLEASE   

[NotNow]

Sheclown, the Sulzbacher Center is an "emergency" shelter.  From there, clients basic needs are met.  Through the available services, clients are prepared for the task of employment.  More permanent housing, such as the Liberty Center, is designed to assist the clients maintain employment and gain independence.  I will be the first to say that more capability is needed.  And that Mental Health INPATIENT services should be available.  The article clearly stated that St. Pete has the capacity to house the homeless and provide them services.  And that certain acts were infractions, not "homelessness".

You gave t shirts to people who SAID they had their last small bag of belongings thrown out by JSO.  The JSO does not throw away people's possessions.  Unattended bags are placed into property if they appear to have value, and trash is thrown in the garbage, whether that be done by the property owner of an Officer called to the scene of abandoned property.

Your reference to Jesus is not only false, but a fallacy in that it is an appeal to emotion, rather than reason.  The verse you quote is Jesus explaining the call to dicipleship and the cost of that call.  Our Saviour was not homeless, He endured hardship for us, and chose poverty to teach us.  Jesus had more than a profession or calling.  The Son of Man came to save us all.  I find a comparison to the Hemming Plaza crowd ... disconcerting.  Similarly, to compare the arrest of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane to an arrest for aggressive panhandling or curb drinking is, I hope, an act of ignorance on your part.  If you are not familiar with the Passion then I must inform you that it had nothing to do with homelessness.

Your inference about JSO is also mistaken.  Officers are some of the most charitable citizens.  You might be surprised at what many Officers have done and the personal sacrifices they have made.  (Although they will say that they get more out of it than what they give.  I am very proud such people are my friends.)

[NotNow]

Your "spinning" of biblical verses speaks for itself.  Your personal attack on me by speculating on "what I would have done" during the arrest of Jesus is ANOTHER fallacious argument on your part, and against the rules of this (your) board.  Your characterization of modern Police Officers, and JSO in particular, are again biased and without factual basis.  You have no education or training in law enforcement, and your opinions show that fact.  It is obvious to me, based on your last post, that you have no education or training in Biblical matters as well.  Your ( and sheclowns) attempt to compare Jesus and his followers to the "Hemming Plaza crowd" is laughable on its face.  You might want to review some of your Biblical claims, as you are clearly adding your own words to the gospel.  I assume that you know what that is called?  I don't have the time or space to educate you on the Passion, but you might review Luke for the actual political charges.  It should also be noted that both of the political powers of the time, Pilate and Herod, found Jesus innocent of all charges.  (Luke 23:4)(Luke 9:7-9, 13:31-33) (Which were grouped under "blasphemy" by the way.  To read what the scriptures say Luke 23:2 and 23:5.)  Only when faced with repeated demands from the Jewish religious leaders and the political consequences of opposing the Jewish majority did Pilate agree to a crucify Jesus.  As for the rest, if you want to start comparing Bible stories, then we should probably start a new thread.

Your statements about my experience in handling the homeless is typical of you.  Baselessly deride those that have actual experience while claiming intimate knowledge.  That is easy to do, and easy to see for what it is.  I don't claim to be an expert on homelessness, but I have years of real experience in dealing with the "problem" side of "homelessness".   All opinions are just that, but I will continue to listen to those who have actually done something in the field being discussed.  

In an attempt to drag this thread back on point, I will AGAIN point out that the ordinances discussed in the article are enforced ONLY after capacity for all demand was achieved in the St. Pete shelter.  Can there be any argument that the "homeless" are better off in shelter with services available to them?  Can there be any argument that one of the main goals of this site, the development of downtown, would be well served by eliminating as much as possible aggressive panhandling, camping out in business doorways, urinating and defecating in our public places, and open drinking and drunkeness as well as the trash generated in such activities?  

[NotNow]

I don't disagree with most of your points in the previous post.  Of course the biggest reason for the loss of SRO or single room occupancies, is the criminality that became associated with them.  I would also point to the previously posted statistic that addiction is the leading cause of homelessness.  I would also submit that autos are not "evil" and that a good bit of our economy is based on transportation.  The automobile frees most to travel at their own will, which I think is a good thing.  

Should we be frugal and simplify our lives?  Yes.  I agree with your points about our food and preparation.  I am in agreement that gardens are important, for many reasons.  I find it strange that you would legislate such things as this and yet refuse to criminalize the desecration of our public areas.  I will state one...more...time that this is NOT criminalizing the homeless, it is providing for the real homeless and reopening our public areas to....the public.

Thank you for your assistance to your young friend, that is an admirable act.

Thanks for a reasonable response, but I will agree to disagree on St. Pete's response to their problem.

[NotNow]

Your "spinning" of biblical verses speaks for itself.  Your personal attack on me by speculating on "what I would have done" during the arrest of Jesus is ANOTHER fallacious argument on your part, and against the rules of this (your) board. Your characterization of modern Police Officers, and JSO in particular, are again biased and without factual basis.  You have no education or training in law enforcement, and your opinions show that fact.  It is obvious to me, based on your last post, that you have no education or training in Biblical matters as well. 

Your ( and sheclowns) attempt to compare Jesus and his followers to the "Hemming Plaza crowd" is laughable on its face.  You might want to review some of your Biblical claims, as you are clearly adding your own words to the gospel.  I assume that you know what that is called?  I don't have the time or space to educate you on the Passion, but you might review Luke for the actual political charges.  It should also be noted that both of the political powers of the time, Pilate and Herod, found Jesus innocent of all charges.  (Luke 23:4)(Luke 9:7-9, 13:31-33) (Which were grouped under "blasphemy" by the way.  To read what the scriptures say Luke 23:2 and 23:5.)  Only when faced with repeated demands from the Jewish religious leaders and the political consequences of opposing the Jewish majority did Pilate agree to a crucify Jesus.  As for the rest, if you want to start comparing Bible stories, then we should probably start a new thread.
 

What in the name of god are you talking about?

Who mentioned the JSO?  Especially in particular?

I did however reference some of your statements on police training, which I would hope were accurate on your part.  If you have misled me or other posters, then I can hardly apologize for that.

I think you are over reacting to sheclown's post to be frank.

She made a blanket statement about homelessness, and you kind of went off the deepend about the "Passion".

Your points were fallacious.

Regardless of their spiritual interpretations, Roman law and policy were regular, secular, and lasted for a thousand years both before and after the time of Jesus.

I did make a point, which is hardly original to me, that if the events described in the bible happened in the modern streets of America, he would hardly have been greeted as a Messiah.  In fact, if anyone doubts that the scene as I described it above, would have been the likely outcome, then let them now speak up.

With one proviso:

Jesus would have already been on probation for reckless endangerment, conversion, and destruction of property for his antics in destroying the tables of the money changers in the Temple.  He probably would also have had his wages garnished to pay off debts arising from the personal injury lawsuits.  Which would explain why he was homeless and unemployed.

There was also the matter of illegal production and distribution of alcohol at the wedding in Cana, practicing free public medical care without a license (how socialist of Him).  Depending on who would have busted him, that can carry a fine and a jail sentence in the modern world.

No the list of modern crimes that would have landed Jesus flat on his back downtown in Jail certainly didnt begin or end with the assault by his followers against an arresting officer in Gethsemane.

For example, when he was feeding all of the unemployed people at his outdoor sermon, were the facilities licensed and inspected by a health department?  Any health measures taken?

Was he using the public sidewalk when he was demonstrating without a license on Palm Sunday?

I doubt he would have had the permits to simply march in and basically shut down traffic on a donkey (which I don't believe are legal street vehicles in Duval County, btw.)

Nah.  Jesus wouldnt have lasted two weeks here.  He would have gotten sick of being called a communist and an idiot who didnt know what he was talking about by various individuals on the blogs.

I am sorry to see you return to such tactics.  I will leave your statements to stand by themselves, they say more than I can ever hope to comment.  Have a good Saturday.

[sheclown]

Notnow, I just returned and read this thread. 

The man did come into the thrift store crying about the "roundup" and the loss of his one bag of clothes.

JSO did not set out to terrorize the homeless, but is following policy and frankly just doing what they are told to do. 

I am a big fan of police presence.  Makes me happy to see them out and about.  I called just last week on a suspicious car near an elementary school and I was VERY glad that they are nearby and eager to help.

& btw, I have had to toss out personal items belonging to homeless folks who have wandered off and left them too.

But this thread is talking about increasing the criminalization of homelessness. 

And who carries out the implementation of that? 

[sheclown]

Day centers scattered throughout Duval County is what is needed.  I'm not a big fan of Walmart social services, prefer moms and pops -- faith based, but that's just me.

Phillips Highway would be a great place to locate a nice sized day center.  There are plenty of rundown stores and warehouses, on the bus lines, could offer showers and bathrooms and lunch.  Internet for job searches. 

Could be cheap and simple and downtown's burden could be greatly reduced.

Put smaller ones on major bus routes and hand out a special bus token like the ones for the disabled.

We could have "magnet" day centers...ones with washer/dryers or ones with internet or ones with case workers for mental health consults. 

Give the homeless special IDs that scan to open the doors to get in so you can track who is where. Let them "buy" food at the drop in centers so you know what services they are using and where. 

[sheclown]

Give churches incentives to open day centers--perhaps surplus government property and the use of a trained social worker.  Churches are charged with the duty of protecting the poor -- help them do it.