STREETCAR NOW JACKSONVILLE!

[JeffreyS]

This is our closest to bird in the hand Mass Transit project. Let's push for this to gain the momentum it needs to overcome any bumps that may come along.

[Charles Hunter]

Oak, from St. Vincent's to 5 Points.  The first phase doesn't go all the way downtown? 
To continue DT from Oak at Margaret, there are a few options, since I don't think you could get under I-95 on Oak, due to the on/off ramps for Park.  Thus, either a shift to Park at Post; or follow Margaret and College under I-95, which has the advantage of going by Annie Lytle.  Then over to Park to get to the Osborn/Ock Terminal Center.

[thelakelander]

The first phase would possibly go all the way from Park & King to Newnan St in DT.   Through Riverside, my preferred path would be Oak Street between King and Post Streets.  Its the path of the original line, the street is wide enough to accommodate it, there are a mix of uses along the corridor and there are some great infill TOD opportunities in the vicinity of St. Vincents.

[thelakelander]

Regarding I-95, my preferred alignment would be running from Oak over to Riverside Avenue, via Post Street.  Riverside Avenue would give the line direct access to the Cummer, RAM, Fidelity's campus, BCBS, Everbank and the new Brooklyn Central Park.  In Brooklyn, crossing over to either Park or Myrtle makes sense on some level.  At the end of the day, I think Brooklyn would be the main winner with the ultimate implementation of this project.

[Charles Hunter]

I agree with using Riverside for the reasons you said - it could use the reserved right-of-way along the west side of Riverside.

[Dashing Dan]

For reasons that are more closely related to how I feel about this website than to how I may or may not feel about a streetcar within Riverside, I am planning not to post any messages on this thread as Dashing Dan.

If anyone thinks that this is because I am taking a position either for or against streetcars in general or this streetcar line in particular, then that would be a mistake.

It's simply because I don't feel comfortable taking a position on this website that would prejudice or possibly conflict with a position that I might end up taking in real life.

I do plan to follow this thread closely, and I am also planning to post on other threads.

Now let's see if I can stick to my plans.

PS - I have already voted in this poll.

[Ocklawaha]

The following is an edited reprint of my 2007 story on why streetcar would be good for Jacksonville. Most of what I had to say then, from a condo in Medellin, Colombia no less, is still true today. Jacksonville has always had the ability to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory, and if she has a victory it's a fading victory much like Japanese historians refer to Pearl Harbor.  

With a new mayor, new council, and a mobility plan in hand, we might not be shovel ready...yet, but we're streetcar ready. Let's make this THE STREETCAR STARTER THREAD!

photos by Lunican
models by Jason

Which system would better serve the central business district? Which of the combination's would better the quality of life and connectivity to the new Transportation Center at Jacksonville Terminal? The City of Jacksonville, is at a crossroads. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (or JTA), has proposed closing off certain downtown lanes and they continue to loop buses through the downtown, wasting 20 minutes making this circuit. The citizens of the City are pushing  for a return to streetcars and a completed Skyway system, as a clean answer to the same problem. Either system might provide the connectivity to future commuter rail plans, which begs the question, “Which is the best fit for a modern boom town?

I believe the Skyway should be completed into the City’s vibrant San Marco, Riverside, and stadium-East side urban neighborhoods. Consideration should be given to extensions the Woodstock Park, Farmers Market, Edward Waters College area.  Coupled with a system of large well lit parking garages, with ground floor retail and food establishments, good security,  bus and streetcar transfer platforms, the Skyway, would become as popular and vital, as Miami’s Metro-Rail, or Metro-Mover systems. There is no reason why the Skyway couldn’t go down to ground level for these transfer stations, making an across the platform transfer possible. I am confident a system of bus free bus transfers at the end of the Skyway routes would make it the downtown trunk line of Jacksonville‘s transit system

The rider data comes under the microscope again when compared to Tuscon, Arizona’s,  â€œOld Pubelo Trolley.Ӡ In the roughly Jacksonville size City of Tuscon, they have a system of real heritage trolleys, on trolley tracks, and a system of trolley-look-alike buses. They have found that even though the trolleys only operate a few days a week, and at a higher fare, they are running with capacity loads.

The trolley-look-alike buses which run early morning until late evening, have fallen behind the real trolley’s weekly passenger counts. So real trolleys, even with high fares and limited operations are exceeding the performance of the fakes. Those cost numbers are equally suspect. JTA simply shopped for the most expensive LRT projects in the nation, then released the misleading information. Certainly no one would argue that Buffalo’s new LRT system was expensive, it was built as a subway! St. Louis, Boston, Pittsburgh and Newark, also have elements of Subway or other high dollar construction in them.

Other cities have opened a starter streetcar system without the super high expenses.  Memphis, Tampa, Little Rock, and Kenosha have heritage systems, Portland, Oregon and Albuquerque, New Mexico both have modern streetcar systems under construction or in operation. All of these cities are on tracks for less then JTA plans to spend on a bus.

What are the positives for the return of what was once Florida’s largest streetcar network. The old Jacksonville Traction Company once reached into every corner of the City. Its sale was part of a national conspiracy funded by highway, oil and automaker interests that ended with the sale of the nations largest urban electric railroad in Los Angeles. This was duly noted in the famous movie, “Who framed Roger Rabbit”.

Today, the finished Skyway in concert with a clean, quiet, electric streetcar system, would give Jacksonville the connectivity that would support it’s booming core and set the stage for future commuter rail service.

Starting at the corner of Lee and Water Streets in front of the grand old depot, the line would travel East on Water and Independence, less then a block from the St. Johns river and the Riverwalk.  North on Newnan  moves the line away from the River towards Springfield, crossing Duval Street in the process. Turning East on Beaver  to Randolph takes the trolleys into the heart of the stadium district. While there is a gap in Beaver, it is a two or three block area, bisected by Hogan’s Creek and a beautiful urban woods.

It was called the most beautiful streetcar line in the world, and it was in JACKSONVILLE.

This small section would give us the opportunity to prove to the masses, that trolleys run on track and can thus be landscaped, leaving only the running rails visible in a garden-like setting.

To set up a future extension into the City’s historic Springfield preservation district, the Newnan Street line could continue North to First Street, hence West to Main or Pearl, and Westward on 8Th. There could be a fantastic museum, car house and tourist attraction.  From this point it would be a simple task to take the line right on up to the 8th Street hospital district, perhaps on a reconstruction of the old Main or Pearl Street Trolley lines, once considered, “The most beautiful Trolley line in the World”.

A new Skyway station at Newnan and Bay Streets on a Sport’s area extension would further compliment the connectivity of the whole network. A joint Trolley, Skyway, bus transfer facility at the sports district would enhance every venue at the ball fields and even allow for limited conversion of surface parking lots into green spaces.

The popularity of streetcars and the mobility plan development dollars they generate is thought to stem from the fact that the route is fixed, unchangeable without much expense, and effort. Unlike buses, where if the route fails the bus can be re-routed, the newly returned streetcar lines in the nation have spurred billion’s of dollars in development. Further, unlike buses, or trolley-like buses, the streetcar draws real tourists and provides more riders due to a child-like desire screams, “Mommy, I want to ride that one”!

A development that would have a major impact on the City and be a natural fit for the streetcars could be located along that wooded gap in Beaver Street and along Hogan’s Creek.  This little creek runs through an urban forest and abandoned industrial building and rail right-of-way mix from the State/Union Street freeway, South to the St. Johns River.

This urban creek could be channeled and built into a tour boat route with a Oklahoma City or San Antonio like River (or Creek) Walk. The abandoned warehouses could be recycled as condos and shopping centers, a Hogan’s Creek walk could put a whole new dimension in Jacksonville’s popular Riverwalk system.

At the empty wooded lot at the Beaver Street gap, is an opportunity for a return of Jacksonville’s once famous “Dixieland Amusement Park”. This park once located in the City’s South-bank featured a sort of permanent combination Carnival-Worlds Fair-Tropical Expo, complete with midway and themed rides. Being the North Anchor to a Creek-Walk with two streetcar crossings, a Skyway crossing and sandwiched between the urban core and sports district should bode well for any recreational development.

Access to historic Riverside-Avondale could use the Myrtle Avenue underpass, or the Lee-Park Street viaduct. Just as the original Jacksonville Traction Company had done, Forest Street could be used to bring everything into the heart of Riverside Drive. A line into Riverside opens the door to future reconstruction of the original Murray Hill-Kent, Fairfax-Ortega, a Roosevelt Plaza or Post Street lines.

Imagine, a light rail train in Downtown Jacksonville travels down Newnan Street, passes by the Florida Theater, just before heading down Water Street to the Prime Osborn Transportation Center. Could this be the future of Jacksonville Transportation?

Hogans Creek? It could happen with streetcar.

A ride on the new streetcar’s would not only be fun, it would serve a transportation purpose.

Leaving from connecting park and ride lots, bus, or train service, at Jacksonville Terminal, one would notice the beauty of the historic streetcars or the sleek large modern-streetcars. The first thing that is noticed is when the doors open - the car is silent, except for the hum of the air-conditioner, and the occasional thump of the air compressor.

Fare is collected, a seat found, and the car starts with a slight jolt. It squeaks in protest at the sharp curves out of the station and around the Lee and Water Street corner. The ride is glass smooth as we quickly accelerate under the Skyway and head East. To the right is the Federal Reserve Building, CSX headquarters and Times-Union Performing Arts center. On the left we pass the Omni Hotel and Wachovia Bank.

We pull up in front of the Jacksonville Landing Complex and the crowd changes,  many tourists are seen enjoying the shops, food and stunning river views. Re-boarding we roll past the Modis Building, and under the Main Street Bridge to Newnan Street. Swinging North, the old streetcar claws its way up the hill from the river without the expected hesitation, in fact leaving the nearby buses in its dust. Clattering through the switch at Duval and a switch at Beaver.

At Beaver, it swings right and duck’s into a beautiful wooded park. It looks like another typical Jacksonville neighborhood party, everywhere people enjoying the Creek Walk, the shopping, and  theme park carnival atmosphere.

Again the crowd changes, and we move off across Hogan’s Creek, and enter the Sports area. Racing down Randolph, we pass historic churches, manicured green space and wrought iron fences. Some venue at the Ball Park has just ended and the transfer station is packed with riders. Buses are lined up in a bus lane, across the platform is a four car Skyway train, busy transferring the crowd. Our big streetcar stops in line with a few others as it takes on dozens of happy fans. Leaving the station, it paw’s its way over the bridge re-crossing Hogan’s Creek, and merges into the Duval Street traffic lanes.

We clatter over the streetcar switch at the corner of Duval and Newnan and head back to the quiet of Riverside.

As the Streetcar pulls away, it’s bell fades in the distance, I note the City Hall’s upper window. A curtain is pulled back and I think, if but for a second, I see the figure of the new mayor and transit director looking down upon us, smiling knowingly. I find myself wondering; if I look back on my life years from now,  how would I feel if I had not promoted the streetcars return? My friends we can hold our heads high secure in the knowledge that this is more then an idea, this is a concept that captures the soul of a City.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

The streetcar starter thread has been merged into this thread which was about ready for publication. Thanks for the Poll, nice job.

OCKLAWAHA

[peestandingup]

Park. I think its important for it to roll down the more commercial streets rather than the streets that are more residential for a number of reasons.

Riverside would work too. Although there's more housing stock there (around the starter line), it would roll it past Memorial Park, then up through the entire commercial district of 5 Points & eventually the rest of Riverside Ave. Which is much more pleasant & "alive" looking than going through the Brooklyn neighborhood up to downtown.

Although...a streetcar line going through Brooklyn could lead to a revitalization of that area too. That line would also put it going past the old transit station & where the new one is supposed to be going.

Hmmm.

[tufsu1]

A streetcar study was done by JTA a few years ago...followed by the North Flroida TPO's LRTP and the COJ Mobility Plan...all of these studies looked at the potential route

from memory I believe it goes down King from Park to Oak...then east on Oak to 5 points...a quick jog over to Riverside Avenue and then up Riverside to the Brooklyn area.

That said, the next thing that needs to happen with streetcar is a more detailed route planning, ridership, and financial study.

[Ocklawaha]

This schematic map of BROOKLYN illustrates some of the strengths and weaknesses of each route. It is not geographically accurate or to scale.

It would actually be possible to route each of these prime modes through Brooklyn on the way south or west. As a general rule Myrtle Avenue passengers could also easily walk to Park if they so desired, fewer would make the trek all the way from Myrtle to Riverside AV. Likewise people on Riverside could easily walk to Park, but fewer would go to Myrtle. Park has the best of both worlds with easy access on either side to streetcar or Skyway, if someone didn't want to ride the BRT.

By using the Myrtle Avenue Subway tunnel, the streetcar is the only mode that could easily get into the transportation center from either the south or from Durkeeville to the north.

The Skyway to Blue Cross is the only mode with a direct link into the CBD WITHOUT going into transportation center.

The best of all worlds we'd simply get all three, it's not overkill as the river crowds the streets around the city, just ask anyone from Orange Park or Middleburg about the many routes they can choose. It's not Clay's fault that there simply isn't a place for another road, and it isn't Brooklyn's fault that 3 modes converging just above the neighborhood should traverse the area.

Think not about streetcars or Skyways, think in terms of walking, of flow, of lineal distances and calculate yourself from each and where you might go on each.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

)

A streetcar study was done by JTA a few years ago...followed by the North Flroida TPO's LRTP and the COJ Mobility Plan...all of these studies looked at the potential route

from memory I believe it goes down King from Park to Oak...then east on Oak to 5 points...a quick jog over to Riverside Avenue and then up Riverside to the Brooklyn area.

That said, the next thing that needs to happen with streetcar is a more detailed route planning, ridership, and financial study.

I would argue that there is every evidence that we will self finance a heritage streetcar line I'd say doing FTA type studies at this point (even if we had cash in hand) is a waste of time and resources. REASON? First this isn't going to be federally funded until somewhere down the road when we might need help with a large scale expansion. Meanwhile, had the rubber tired villains not destroyed the streetcar system it would still be with us, and we know exactly where that would have been, Oak, Riverside, Myrtle, Edison etc. We'd still be running it and we wouldn't need to study it to see if people would ride. So let's rebuild, it's as simple as that. A few streets have become primary and a few secondary compared to what they were in 1919, for example FOREST is now the EAST-WEST link from Brooklyn west, and in 1919 it was ELECTRIC AVENUE (what we call EDISON today). But most still sit in place, wider then most other streets it's a given where the streetcar went, where it should go and even where it was to go, but never got the chance (merely check out St. Johns Avenue where it pulls away from Herschel south of Fishweir Creek, never got an inch of track but it's pretty damn obvious what it was built in anticipation of.

Also Mayor Brown has 4 years certain, if he is not there for 4 more, if we get a Tea Party type,  all we'll have is another pile of paper to tell us what we already know.

Lastly, certain savings can sometimes be obtained by on site salvage and reuse of old track materials, at the very least the heart cypress ties that are making Oak Street A corduroy mess can be sold. Rail can often be reused, and if its not "T" rail and instead is girder rail we could REALLY save a pile of cash rebuilding in place.

If the city's ordinances require a study or two, I'd give them a maximum number of days and trust me, it wouldn't be much, 90 day wonders? IT COULD HAPPEN. Meanwhile save the studies for when we need Uncle Sam to give us a boost, as he is likely to do when we can toss 30-60 million worth of streetcar at him and it up and running.


OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Part of the problem of skipping Federal-standard studies, is that if you ever intend to seek Federal funds, all of your groundwork has to be to Federal standards.  But, if the City plays it right, your approach can work - just so the City (or JTA) doesn't say anything about wanting Federal funds later.  Build it with local dollars from the Mobility Fee.  Then, at some point in the future, once the Jacksonville Streetcar has been in operation for a few years, seeking Federal funds for a major extension might be appropriate.

[Ocklawaha]

Part of the problem of skipping Federal-standard studies, is that if you ever intend to seek Federal funds, all of your groundwork has to be to Federal standards.  But, if the City plays it right, your approach can work - just so the City (or JTA) doesn't say anything about wanting Federal funds later.  Build it with local dollars from the Mobility Fee.  Then, at some point in the future, once the Jacksonville Streetcar has been in operation for a few years, seeking Federal funds for a major extension might be appropriate.

BINGO!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

even if you use all local dollars, you still need to do some level of route planning and ridership study....if not, good luck getting financing from either the public or private sector.