Twisted Martini closing at The Jacksonville Landing

[wsansewjs]

Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.

Dude that's not a conspiracy theory.  That is fact.

Ask Stephen's permission to access the Jacksonville Wikipedia page.  It's probably on there.

There are more to my conspiracy theory than those mere quoted sentences you extracted on my previous post.

-Josh

[ChriswUfGator]

You are correct, I was never blaming the Landing management. How can you? Its management, as I pointed out already, consisted of the two largest mall operators in the country, and one of them was actually the original inventor of the marketplace concept, which worked out well for them in many other places. Now we have a local guy, who is suffering the same way as the corporate players did. I absolutely never thought the place's problem was the management.

The problem is the City. Parking policies are a big problem, their refusal to honor their 20+ year-old promise to provide parking is a major problem, and the general decline of downtown brought about a host of asinine governmental policies, have crippled the Landing. It has nothing to do with the Landing itself.

But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.

The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.

[wsansewjs]

Including one whose business at the Landing just went under, and another one who is the chief champion of the parking policies that have been its chief weakness. I'm simply pointing out that, for some odd reason, despite this small handful of people pointing out how unbelievably awesome it is, the place has been a flop. This seems like a discrepancy that deserves some explanation, no?

And generally, I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.

+1,000,000.  Except that it sounds like you are making the opposite point.  You arent blaming Landing Management then, but rather the downtown policies?

Definitely think that everyone in the thread actually agrees with you on this point.

off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs

and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false

I saw you said "5 years" sorry about that, I misread. I corrected my post for you.

But as to the rest, again, do you know a firm number for how many total leasable spaces are available on Landing property? I am trying to find a list of the original tenants, but am not having much luck.

Banana Republic, Sharper Image, Limited, Brookstone, Jarrods, Waldenbooks,  9west, The Cookie Company, Silver Spoons, Ruby Tuesdays, L & N Seafood Market,  Gap, Lerners, Haagen Daz, The Fudge Factory, Los Tapas Steakhouse, Peterbrookes, There was a longstanding music shop, Athlete's Attic, and a few others.  Ill see if I can get the complete list later.

-Josh

[ChriswUfGator]

The Fat Tuesday was upstairs on the East side, where the sushi/bento box place is now that smells like a sewer.

[Captain Zissou]

Come on, don't erase the blatant and unprompted attack on Field.  I'd love to see his rebuttal.  It would be a doozie to say the least.

[PeeJayEss]

But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.

The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.

No one is making this argument. The "Landing is awesome" is a total straw man that you have created. Show me where in this thread that someone said the Landing is great. The "perpetrator" (really?) you are referring to was me, but I did not make the claim that you are claiming I claimed. This is just three pages of you arguing with things you made up in your head. You are saying the Landing "sucks" and we are respectfully disagreeing (which is apparently NOT okay). It ain't perfect, but its far better than being locked in an outhouse.

[peestandingup]

You are correct, I was never blaming the Landing management. How can you? Its management, as I pointed out already, consisted of the two largest mall operators in the country, and one of them was actually the original inventor of the marketplace concept, which worked out well for them in many other places. Now we have a local guy, who is suffering the same way as the corporate players did. I absolutely never thought the place's problem was the management.

The problem is the City. Parking policies are a big problem, their refusal to honor their 20+ year-old promise to provide parking is a major problem, and the general decline of downtown brought about a host of asinine governmental policies, have crippled the Landing. It has nothing to do with the Landing itself.

But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.

The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.

I was just pointing out a lot of the minor annoyances that are on the surface in the place's current incarnation. Which of course, management could fix (or at least do a much better job at). I think everyone knows the downtown policies that have also plagued the Landing (as well as a hell of a lot of other businesses).

They're obviously both problems, but both a whole nother can of worms too. Surely everyone can agree on that? If so, then we're basically all arguing over which is more important, no?? Obviously downtown policies & a meager downtown population probably play a bigger roll overall. But there's also no doubt that management needs to step it up too. The place def has a "management needs to crack some skulls" vibe to it.

Thats all I was saying.

[ChriswUfGator]

But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.

The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.

No one is making this argument. The "Landing is awesome" is a total straw man that you have created. Show me where in this thread that someone said the Landing is great. The "perpetrator" (really?) you are referring to was me, but I did not make the claim that you are claiming I claimed. This is just three pages of you arguing with things you made up in your head. You are saying the Landing "sucks" and we are respectfully disagreeing (which is apparently NOT okay). It ain't perfect, but its far better than being locked in an outhouse.

Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?

There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.

Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there  . It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).

Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.

Well, then one more time, maybe you'd care to explain, given how awesome you think it is, why the place has had a 50%+ vacancy rate for decades and all the merchants there besides Hooters are continually going out of business?

And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.

The thing has been dying since the day it opened. It has never made a profit at any point during its existence. So, aside from the very people who actually invented the whole concept, who would you believe is more qualified to manage it?  

So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is?  

I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a straw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.

[PeeJayEss]

Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?

I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a staw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.

Soo.... you couldn't find any posts with people calling the Landing "awesome" or "great?" Sooo.....your assertion that people are calling the Landing "awesome" or "great" and glossing over its problems is...false? Your logic is difficult to follow. I am thinking about a quote from Billy Madison. And now I have to go get a dictionary and look up "concupiscent."

edit: I didn't understand it before I looked the word up, and now that I know what the word means, I totally have no clue what you're saying.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Banana Republic, Sharper Image, Limited, Brookstone, Jarrods, Waldenbooks,  9west, The Cookie Company, Silver Spoons, Ruby Tuesdays, L & N Seafood Market,  Gap, Lerners, Haagen Daz, The Fudge Factory, Los Tapas Steakhouse, Peterbrookes, There was a longstanding music shop, Athlete's Attic, and a few others.  Ill see if I can get the complete list later.

I have a tenant list from about '91 that I can post later - four years into the lifespan of the Landing, but most of the above listed stores were still there.  I think only Brookstone and Sharper Image were gone by then out of the above group.

There was also B. Dalton, Laura Ashley, the "Dawson & Buckles" pushcarts (named for an early Jacksonville general merchandise store), Johnny Rockets, and a gallery called Picture Perfect.  The music shop was Musicland.  I also remember an Italian restaurant called Ciao Gianni, and a Mexican one called Cuco's, but I think they were not originals but replacements for original tenants.  Raggz, which eventually became Discount Pro-Wear, also was a replacement of an original if memory serves me, but was there from at least the early 90s until '08 or '09.

Silver Spoon eventually became the American Cafe (a different concept from the same restaurant co.), so for all intents and purposes it is also an original tenant, I believe.

[ChriswUfGator]

Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?

I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a staw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.

Soo.... you couldn't find any posts with people calling the Landing "awesome" or "great?" Sooo.....your assertion that people are calling the Landing "awesome" or "great" and glossing over its problems is...false? Your logic is difficult to follow. I am thinking about a quote from Billy Madison. And now I have to go get a dictionary and look up "concupiscent."

Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...

Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.

And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.

[ChriswUfGator]

edit: I didn't understand it before I looked the word up, and now that I know what the word means, I totally have no clue what you're saying.

Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.

[PeeJayEss]

Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...

Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.

And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.

Since I am clearly not very smart, could you more concisely quote where I (or anyone on this thread) wrote "The Landing is great" or "the Landing is awesome," since that is the basis of your complaint?

Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.

Ooo a personal attack. Way to advance your argument.

[Wacca Pilatka]

I also am very grateful to Janice and Toney for allowing the artists inside the downstairs gallery to have space to do their work and to have the first experience of what it takes to run a gallery.  There will be a whole generation of young artists in this city who have this valuable insight as a result of Toney's generosity and Janice Lowe's optimism and civic attitude.

They're doing some fine work too, and I always bring guests to the Adrian Pickett Gallery, James Pontal's photography gallery, the store that sells glass, etc.

[Captain Zissou]

Chris,  your aversion to sticking to the pertanent information for the sake of making it sound like you're winning the argument is astounding.  No one has ever said the Landing isn't having problems.  No poster has claimed that the Landing isn't largely vacant.  Everyone on here knows of the Landing's struggles.  Most of us know why the Landing is struggling.  Just because we don't list ad infinitum the same reasons and almost identical posts in hundreds of threads for months on end, it doesn't mean that we don't know more than you about what plagues this city.  My point is not to convince you that the Landing is thriving.  

I just want to know why you hate it so much.  You have failed to answer my question. that question is "What's your point??" Is there a reason you keep going down this trail where no one is following?? Are you just being difficult? Are you trying to prove anything?

Chris, there's not a soul on here that doesn't know you're a smart kid.  Why not do something positive with it?  Why don't you try and help out, rather than just cast aspersions on our city, our mayor, and your fellow posters? What have you done to help further the cause of metrojacksonville and better your city?