Downtown Jacksonville Ranks Last For Job Growth

[vicupstate]

Nashville (526), Louisville(399), and Indianapolis (400) are all at or over 400 square miles.

Are you saying the majority of that, in each community, is included in the urban core?

Duval County, excluding water is 774 sq. miles.  Probably 200-250sq. miles of that is rural and undeveloped areas on the North and West sides (and somewhat on the Southside, albeit vanishing by the day).

Why is there this eagerness to scapegoat geography, when something that can actually be CHANGED, leadership, is the real culprit?

[ChriswUfGator]

If you look at the Indy overlay and take the part of Indy that is actual overlaping into Clay County and move it into the Duval County outline, the DEVELOPED land area is almost identical in size.  The remaining parts of Duval (outside of the Indy overlay) are almost completely rural and very low density.

How are the suburbs of Indy or Nashville or Louisville more 'disparate' from the urban core than Jacksonville's?  Were they not designed auto-centric as well?  

It's totally bogus. Those communities understand that the core is important, vital even, to the whole. That case hasn't been made often enough or well enough in Jacksonville, because the leadership (mayor, council, Chamber, etc.) of the community has not made doing so a priority or a focus.
 

It's not totally bogus.

The gigantic supply of undeveloped land in Duval County, which then became part of the City of Jacksonville under consolidation, is part of the problem. When these areas are cheaply developed using taxpayer-subsidized roads, utilities, etc., it comes at the expense of a dense city center like the former pre-consolidation City. What is good for developing rural areas is often bad for developed urban areas. We saw this clearly in the 1970s and 1980s with "white flight" to the suburbs, and Jacksonville is presently undergoing (actually pretty much finishing up) the corporate version of white flight to the suburbs.

In order to strike a proper balance between urban and development interests, the two really need to have their own independent leadership that can make decisions that don't have to be some King Solomon's Compromise that kills the whole thing. Under our current government structure, where these disparate and unconnected parts are the same City (even when they're not), this is well nigh impossible. And so you have what we have here.

Why are you hanging onto consolidation at this point? I think most people that look at it as implemented in Duval County would probably recognize we were a poor candidate from the beginning, due to the land area and rural/urban conflicts involved, and I think most people realize this played a significant role in killing downtown. This hasn't been some wonderful panacea, it has created an unsustainable sprawl-based economy and has placed us at the bottom of almost every national ranking of any given metric.

As was already pointed out by two other posters above, the combined City here is anywhere from 70%-100%+ larger than any of the other examples where consolidation has worked, or at least not exploded as badly as it has here. This government model is size-limited, once you include too many disparate areas with conflicting interests, you wind up with these Solomonic compromises that benefit no one. And blame poor leadership all you like, because that's what this government structure is designed to deliver. Again, as I said before, whether Peyton was a poor leader depends on whether you live on the Southside or near Downtown, doesn't it? That should never have to be the case.

[Ocklawaha]

For every down, there is an UP! When your so far down it looks like UP, that's when you have a real problem.  More? Did anyone else notice that not a single city currently building Light Rail was on the list. Charlotte has a starter line up and running, and they scored 2-3x better then us, as they go toward expansion it will be interesting to watch if a city above the Piedmont fall line with nothing more to warrant it's existence runs circles around us. Memphis has downtown streetcar, but until they get some moxie and vote to extend to the burbs, they're stuck in a Skywayesque hole.

Missing?
*PORTLAND - LIGHT RAIL CENTRAL + STREETCAR + BUS + ROPE CABLEWAY + CORRIDOR RAIL + COMMUTER RAIL
*ALBUQUERQUE - Commuter Rail + Streetcar + bus
*Denver - Light Rail + bus
*Salt Lake City - Light rail + Streetcar (construction) + commuter rail + bus
*Fort Worth - Commuter Rail + bus
*Norfolk - (construction) Light Rail + bus
*A Tale of Two Cities - By Charles Dickens
*Minneapolis-St. Paul - Light Rail + BRT + bus + Commuter Rail + corridor rail
*Phoenix - Light Rail + Bus
*Tuscon - BUS + Massive streetcar construction
*San Diego - bus + commuter rail + light rail + corridor rail
*Cleveland - bus + BRT + light rail + heavy rail
*Orlando - "Jacksonville doesn't do business with carnival people..."
*Tampa - Bus + Streetcar (new expansion)
*Raleigh - Bus + BRT + corridor rail
*Seattle - Bus + BRT + Trolley bus (NOT PCT) + Subway + Streetcar + light rail + commuter rail + corridor rail + ferries
*Science and Health With Key To The Scriptures - By Mary Baker Eddy
*Buffalo - Bus + corridor rail + SNOW + light rail + subway
*New Orleans - Bus + streetcar + streetcar expansion + ferries
*Austin - Bus + commuter rail + BRT planned
*Jacksonville - DEAD END SKYWAY - dead end bus plan - hourly (maybe) bus accomodation

Austin - Route 7 DUVAL/DOVE SPRINGS EVERY 15 MINUTES / 30 MINUTES OFF PEAK
New Orleans - St. Charles Streetcar - EVERY 15 MINUTES
Portland - NE 33 Tri-Met EVERY 20 MINUTES
Fort Worth - Route 7/University EVERY HOUR - but ties with commuter rail to Dallas - EVERY HOUR
JTA - CT2 Townsend / Phoenix - Hourly - connects to other hourly buses - sometimes!

I will say JTA schedules are MUCH BETTER then they were in 1980 when we had nearly twice the routes, but the whole damn city was hourly! Miss a connection and OMG 3-4 hours to and from work. I would second guess ending the old 70 Naval Air route, St. Augustine Road-Powers and a couple of others but plug that old route with say 20 minute headway's to the new community shuttles and we would really have something.


OCKLAWAHA

[Fallen Buckeye]

Put all the homeless shelters and kitchens out in the burbs. That might turn the tide of sprawl. Every subdivision gets a shelter!

Homelessness already exists in the burbs and has yet to change many people's attitudes about homelessness or sprawl. The homeless people in the burbs are just less visible. A lot of them camp in the woods or under overpasses and so on. My church (which is well outside the urban core) has a food pantry which serves homeless and needy families, and business is good unfortunately. I have a friend who was with Clay County Sheriff's office telling about how prevalent they are in Orange Park, too.

That said (and I know you were mostly joking), it makes absolutely no sense to send the majority of homeless services to the burbs. That would mean you have to spread your resources between many, many locations which is inefficient and unrealistic. Plus, it's an issue of accessiblity to services. Downtown more accessible to more parts of the city. You help more people by focusing your services downtown. I think that the new daytime resource center for the homeless will help because right now homeless people don't really have anywhere to be during the daytime except the library. The resource center should help the homeless receive the support and services they need to them get back on their feet.

In the end, I do not think it's fair to pin downtown's decline on homeless people. That's clearly the result of decades of bad public policy.

[NotNow]

Consolidation is the smartest thing we have done.  Our cost of government is lower and our duplication of effort is reduced.  Ock is right in that the local government should "tie" downtown in with the suburbs via rail.  I also support a downtown trolley that simplifies pedestrian movement from offices to downtown eateries and entertainment.  This is Florida and we have to "cool off" the pedestrian experience with trees, shady walking areas, and fun, breezy transport like trolleys and ferries.

The elephant in the room is the perception that downtown is unsafe.  Until that is addressed, no other solution will help downtown.  It is that simple.  I am aware that is not a popular opinion on this site, but if you polled the people that would turn downtown around with their businesses and their shopping, that is their biggest complaint about DT.

[ChriswUfGator]

Consolidation is the smartest thing we have done.  Our cost of government is lower and our duplication of effort is reduced.  Ock is right in that the local government should "tie" downtown in with the suburbs via rail.  I also support a downtown trolley that simplifies pedestrian movement from offices to downtown eateries and entertainment.  This is Florida and we have to "cool off" the pedestrian experience with trees, shady walking areas, and fun, breezy transport like trolleys and ferries.

The elephant in the room is the perception that downtown is unsafe.  Until that is addressed, no other solution will help downtown.  It is that simple.  I am aware that is not a popular opinion on this site, but if you polled the people that would turn downtown around with their businesses and their shopping, that is their biggest complaint about DT.

As with anything, cost isn't the primary concern, is it? It's more like cost vs. value that's the issue.

[NotNow]

For once, we agree.

[Bativac]

Put all the homeless shelters and kitchens out in the burbs. That might turn the tide of sprawl. Every subdivision gets a shelter!

Homelessness already exists in the burbs and has yet to change many people's attitudes about homelessness or sprawl. The homeless people in the burbs are just less visible. A lot of them camp in the woods or under overpasses and so on. My church (which is well outside the urban core) has a food pantry which serves homeless and needy families, and business is good unfortunately. I have a friend who was with Clay County Sheriff's office telling about how prevalent they are in Orange Park, too.

That said (and I know you were mostly joking), it makes absolutely no sense to send the majority of homeless services to the burbs. That would mean you have to spread your resources between many, many locations which is inefficient and unrealistic. Plus, it's an issue of accessiblity to services. Downtown more accessible to more parts of the city. You help more people by focusing your services downtown. I think that the new daytime resource center for the homeless will help because right now homeless people don't really have anywhere to be during the daytime except the library. The resource center should help the homeless receive the support and services they need to them get back on their feet.

In the end, I do not think it's fair to pin downtown's decline on homeless people. That's clearly the result of decades of bad public policy.

Have to agree with you. I am not a fan of entitlement programs and my wife has done enough volunteer work with the homeless (at Sulzbacher Center, with AmeriCorps, etc) to know that at least half of them are "homless by choice" (the choice being laziness). But the homeless need someplace to hang out other than the one big urban park setting downtown (Hemming Plaza) and the Library.

NotNow mentioned the perception that downtown is unsafe. I agree, and I have heard this perception for years. As a kid in the 1980s, my mom forbade us from riding bikes over the Main St Bridge into downtown for fear that we would be assaulted by, I dunno, angry homeless men. We rode down there anyway and only ever had a problem at the School Board building, and those were ignorant high school kids, not homeless people.

I think the city needs more going on downtown. A combination of some kind of subsidies for small businesses (ease up on getting big companies downtown - they have no stake in our city and will leave as soon as they get bought out or find a better deal), relaxing the sign ordinance, put more beat cops walking the streets downtown, FORCE THOSE BEAT COPS TO BE PLEASANT TO DOWNTOWN VISITORS, quit assessing parking violations, and last but not least, carry out an all-out marketing campaign for downtown promoting its cleanliness, things to do, and safety / police presence. (Get an outside firm to do it because the city will royally screw it up as they do everything else relating to downtown.)

Installing a Laura St roundabout, moving the statue, and restoring the neat old clock are going to do absolutely zero to improve the job market downtown, or make downtown a more desireable place to be.

But I don't think the city has any idea what to do and I KNOW the people that live in Jax, for the most part, could not only not care any less about downtown but do not want even the SUGGESTION of their tax dollars going into improving the area and making it a more desirable place to be.

Pant. Wheeze. Rant over.

[RockStar]

I think that no mayor should be reelected if they can't clean up Hemming Plaza. And I don't mean creating laws against the people there, rather it should be a barometer of their ability to create real change. How any elected official can walk into their office and think they're doing a good job for the city is beyond me. Believe me, when I walk by sober people, I ask myself, am I trying hard enough...


Where was I? Oh yeah, local politicians.... self serving bunch of bible thumping hypocrites. But I guess if you go to church for an hour once a week it makes up for being a d-bag the other 167 hours.

Happy Good Friday peeps...and by peeps I mean the little yellow marshmellowy things you'll find in your jesus basket on Sunday. Remember, He died so you could have candy. 

[JHAT76]

Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you  don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.

The people you are talking about are not the problem that I was referring to.  Those people are out looking for work and are not sitting around Hemming Plaza wandering what to do with themselves until the next free meal.

You mean the same one's who use library trash cans as toilets?  Not sure I would consider that a job search activity.

[Bativac]

I think that no mayor should be reelected if they can't clean up Hemming Plaza. And I don't mean creating laws against the people there, rather it should be a barometer of their ability to create real change. How any elected official can walk into their office and think they're doing a good job for the city is beyond me. Believe me, when I walk by sober people, I ask myself, am I trying hard enough...

My wife and I used to argue over this. She would make comments like "it should be illegal for them to hang around here." But what good is that gonna do? That's putting a band-aid over an amputation. Plus how would you word such a law? "No homeless people allowed?" Right, that's legal.

I think beat cops would help. They wouldn't have to arrest anybody or threaten anyone. Just be around, be pleasant. The "problem" bums will figure out that they can't harass people with a handful of police in the area (and I mean actually circulating - not a couple cops leaned against their cars talking to each other).

[Gonzo]

Dude...it's quit obvious that you are completely out of touch with the real world...many many of these people us to be your neighbors and lost everything due to our countries downturn...you bettr hope that one day you  don't need help...you may get your return of your own pathetic attitude toward others.

The people you are talking about are not the problem that I was referring to.  Those people are out looking for work and are not sitting around Hemming Plaza wandering what to do with themselves until the next free meal.

Garden Guy, the pathetic attitude belongs to the people who use the system as a way of life. I harbor no ill will towards those who through unfortunate circumstances find themselves in need of short-term assistance. That is what these shelters were originally intended for. But, having volunteered at them, I know that there are MANY people who don't even try to find work. And, let's face it, there are plenty of jobs that some of these people can do -- though, they may not be very glamorous.

Someone else mentioned that the people using these services should be given a task to do in return for the room and board they recieve. I mentioned the same thing. What is wrong with that? If they are not going ot look for a job, they should at least serve the public in some meaningful way. Empty trash cans, clean bus stops, pick up the plethora of cigarette butts that litter our city. These people are an untapped workforce that SHOULD be tapped.

I don't expect something for nothing. If ever I found myself in that position, I would expect to be asked to do something in return for my room and board. Why is it wrong to expect the same from the homeless?

[RockStar]

As long as welfare pays more than minimum wage and there are tax credits for having children but no father (ie, not married), then the cycle of poverty will continue.

[Ocklawaha]

Nice people, homelessness is a symptom, neither a cause nor a cure for downtown's stagnation. When downtown becomes vibrant again, the homeless will benefit right along with the rest of us. Job's are for everyone and excellence in Mass Transit attracts excellent jobs and lifestyle choices.

OCKLAWAHA

[RockStar]

No, it's not experience. It's an observation. If it were an experience, it would've started, In my experience...