Flawed Incremental High Speed Rail Approach

[tufsu1]

Check out the north side of Jacksonville. Not quite what I would call decrepit!

perhaps not, but how about the single track north of Springfield...or how about the Trout River Bridge before the upgrades last year?

[thelakelander]

Is that (Springfield/Trout River) still considered mainline track?

[spuwho]

I haven't seen the latest cost per mile per passenger data, but if you include FAA costs into the US airline cost structure (also 9-11 fees, gate fees, etc), I still think air travel is cheaper per mile than any HSR could ever be.

So while it seems desirable to get HSR going to reduce air, my understanding is that it doesn't compare economically.

It may be many, many years from now when the air is too congested to take on any more and the costs to fly begin to rise, that HSR will begin to take on a more serious role.

[tufsu1]

Is that (Springfield/Trout River) still considered mainline track?

that's a fair question...probably not

[wsansewjs]

Does it bother you that Southwest Airlines was the biggest lobbyist that murdered the so-called Texas Highway Corridor proposal that includes a dedicated bike lane, cars only lanes, freight trucks lanes, HSR, intercity light rail, etc?

That's the only part I hated Southwest Airlines for.

-Josh

[Ocklawaha]

Check out the north side of Jacksonville. Not quite what I would call decrepit!

perhaps not, but how about the single track north of Springfield...or how about the Trout River Bridge before the upgrades last year?

So tell us TU, what class of track should be maintained on a railroad that only runs from Springfield to Yulee, doesn't carry a single passenger, and operates 24/7 moving heavy loads of paper.

Lakelander, the railroad in question is the former SEABOARD AIR LINE RAILROAD MAINLINE (Richmond-Raleigh-Columbia-Savannah-Jacksonville-Ocala-Wildwood. While it is some 31 miles shorter then the  former Atlantic Coast Line Railroad between Savannah and Jacksonville, it didn't serve any communities of any significance and it was largely single track. When the railroad rationalized it's physical plant after the ACL-Seaboard merger they wisely choose the larger capacity 2 and 3 track plant.

Railroads are broken down into operating divisions, and a single division can consist many miles of connecting railroad lines and their branches. Each segment is a "SUB" or subdivision, and within any given sub there might be several branches or spurs.

The old railroad line along North Main Street to Georgia, is part of the Jacksonville Division, Kingsland Sub... It most certainly is NOT a mainline today. You can bet it will appear in the SEHSR map, as it's about as turn key and arrow straight as anyone could desire.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

I haven't seen the latest cost per mile per passenger data, but if you include FAA costs into the US airline cost structure (also 9-11 fees, gate fees, etc), I still think air travel is cheaper per mile than any HSR could ever be.

So while it seems desirable to get HSR going to reduce air, my understanding is that it doesn't compare economically.

It may be many, many years from now when the air is too congested to take on any more and the costs to fly begin to rise, that HSR will begin to take on a more serious role.

Air is cheaper only because the federal government virtually gives away the whole show with the industry paying pennies on the dollar for their benefits. Aircraft are the most uneconomical means of travel yet devised by man, with the single exception of Airships. As far as fuel costs, Greyhound, Trailways and Amtrak are pretty much the same, and all 3 are getting better all the time with regards to sipping fuel.

Anywhere that High Speed Rail has even half way tried to get established, it blows away the weak airlines and quickly takes a commanding lead in market share. Even the Amtrak Acela that Faye and others are so fond of criticizing has just about chased the airlines out of the Washington-Baltimore-Philadelphia-New York-Hartford-Boston markets. Amtrak carries the bulk and Peter Pan picks up the and fills in the connections with motor coaches.

The idea that a train has to "fly" or it can't compete is lubricious. The only thing public transportation should be competing with is the oil well and gas pump, and in both cases the train or bus wins by a huge margin.

Rail travel is more energy efficient, and uses less fuel, than cars or airplanes. According to U.S. Department of Energy data, Amtrak is almost 20 percent more efficient than domestic airline travel and 28 percent more efficient than auto travel on a per-passenger-mile basis.

Take a look at the video and info below and see for yourself.

VIDEO LINK:
http://www.amtrak.com/ws/video/amtrak_eco.html

Energy Used (BTUs)

That's not all. Here are a few more changes Amtrak has made to conserve energy:

    *
      Unlike commercial aviation, which mostly uses highly refined jet fuel, Amtrak uses diesel fuel produced at a higher volume per barrel of crude oil and electricity produced in the Northeast from a variety of fuels.
    *
      Amtrak has an operating policy to reduce the amount of time that a powered locomotive is idle and is installing a new automatic shut-off system in its diesel locomotive fleet to limit idling.
    *
      Increased use of dynamic braking, which involves the electric traction motors in locomotives, provides resistance to the rotating wheel axle. This method of slowing trains is more fuel-efficient than braking with power applied.
    *
      Acela Express high speed trains and other new and remanufactured electric locomotives have enabled Amtrak to reduce energy consumption by up to eight percent through the use of a regenerative braking system. This braking system returns electric energy overhead to the catenary power system and replaces some of the electrical energy consumed.
    *
      Amtrak recently introduced 80 new vehicle carriers for the Auto Train. These are substantially lighter than the ones they replaced and have helped reduce annual diesel fuel usage by about 640,000 gallons â€" while carrying more vehicles.
    *
      Last year, Amtrak substituted electric locomotives for diesel locomotives on the Keystone Corridor between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, Pa., improving fuel efficiency and schedules.

* BTU stands for British Thermal Unit, a standard unit of energy. Figures listed refer to BTUs used per passenger mile.

Sources:

    *
      National Association of Railroad Passengers Press Release on U.K. - California Global Warming Pact
    * Oak Ridge National Laboratory Data on Fuel Efficiency - Transportation Energy Data Book (Edition 28), Table 2.12


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

hey ock ADOT launched a three-year, $6.3 million study to weigh the environmental effects of a Phoenix-to-Tucson passenger line and measure which routes and stations would perform best. that route will 2 billion
top speed 110 but  should  state look at  phoenix  to los angles instead because  phoenix  and  los angles have a good transit system but tucson does not and should it go 110 or 150+ and the state does want to take a 83 mile abanded bnsf railroad  from phoenix to tuscon going at 110mph

This is a great idea, but it doesn't need to be higher then 110 mph, and Phoenix-Tucson is certainly the primary focus area.  Tucson is currently building a streetcar system of their own, which will open in about one year, they also have a vintage streetcar line, plus a very good bus system, so don't count them out. Phoenix has Light Rail, bus and Skyharbor is almost downtown.

The map I included shows the following:

RED - Phoenix - Tucson HrSR on UNION PACIFIC TRACKAGE

YELLOW - This is the link that is out of service and likely will be abandoned. Arizona appears as clueless as Florida and will probably let this get away, then they'll cry about how they need a few hundred million to put Amtrak back in Phoenix. The State should take this line and upgrade it, I'd initiate twice daily service to Yuma and San Diego via this cut-off. NOTE this isn't BNSF, it's UNION PACIFIC, formerly SOUTHERN PACIFIC mainline.

PURPLE - This is the route of the Arizona and California Railroad west of Phoenix, and UP south of Phoenix, this would make an excellent reroute of the Sunset Limited between Los Angeles-San Bernandino-Barstow-Goff's-Wickenburg-Phoenix-Tucson-Las Cruses... etc.

BLUE - These are the current Amtrak Routes in Arizona, the northern one is daily - fast and EXCELLENT - the southern one "Sunset Limited" sucks.

LIGHT BLUE - This is the route of an often proposed intra-state Arizona train connecting Flagstaff-Wickenburg-Phoenix-Tucson, it would pass through Prescott, it could split at Williams with a section going on to Grand Canyon, and the other going to Flagstaff, I would think summer season, weekends in the fall and spring, and Christmas-New Years would cover it pretty well..

Arizona struggles with one huge drawback to rail... JOHN MC CAIN, who is without a doubt, right up there with Randall O'Toole as our nations biggest enemies of rail.

OCKLAWAHA

[yapp1850]

but  people are saying Phoenix to tucson is a waste of money because you can drive there in 1 1/2 you should build 220mph pheonix,los angles,las vegas you will be there in 2 hrs  but it will cost 35-40 billion.