Republicans, Abortion, Women's Rights, and the challenges facing them.

[FayeforCure]

Oh Clem, you are so wrong. Remember my home country is among the most promiscuous countries around  .............and voila, it has the lowest abortion rates.

Why?

Free contraception!!!

So if you want to stop what you call the "killing of babies" do what the Dutch do, prevent those unwanted pregnancies!

The Guttmacher report also found that total abortions occurred at "roughly equal rates" in countries where they are legal and where they are highly restricted, which means that laws outlawing abortion are serving only to drive women to have the procedure in riskier places and with riskier methods.

But at a news conference in London, Guttmacher president Sharon Camp cited the Netherlands as an example for all other countries to follow. It has the lowest abortion rate in the world: about 1 percent of women have had an abortion in the past year compared with a worldwide average of about 3 percent.

The Dutch? With their legalized prostitution and ultraliberal abortion laws? How can that be? I did a little research and found out that the Netherlands has not only the lowest abortion rate but the lowest rate of teen pregnancy. In fact, the country has held this distinction for decades. Researchers credit strategies like sex education in schools, discussion of sexuality in the mass media, and easy access to contraception. One study pointed out that "acceptance of contraception preceded liberalization of abortion" and that Dutch citizens accept "abortion only as a last resort."

Also a biggie: inclusion of family planning services as part of the Dutch medical system. Hmm. Full coverage for birth control pills, IUDs, and vasectomies? Sounds like a must in our healthcare reform bill.

In fact, I'm wondering if all of the raging arguments concerning abortion coverage in health reform aren't a little misguided. Perhaps pro-choice and antiabortion activists should unite to wage a push for comprehensive family planning services. After all, both groups say they want to lower the rate of abortions, and research suggests those programs, rather than restrictive laws, are the way to achieve that goal.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/on-women/2009/10/14/abortion-down-contraception-up-recipe-for-health-reform

And yes, I did use the morning after pill as a teenager in the 70s. It is still not available over the counter to teenagers in the US. and what's more it costs $40, too steep a price for a teenager.

And you wonder why the US has the HIGHEST abortion rate of any western nation!!!!

BTW, I have never had an abortion.

[buckethead]

Is that what it means to "go Dutch"?

[Clem1029]

Oh Clem, you are so wrong. Remember my home country is among the most promiscuous countries around  .............and voila, it has the lowest abortion rates.

Why?

Free contraception!!!

So if you want to stop what you call the "killing of babies" do what the Dutch do, prevent those unwanted pregnancies!

I am trying to prevent those "unwanted" pregnancies. Only difference is I'm using the only method that really works. Like I said...you want the lazy way out instead of actively trying to change and improve the culture.

Besides, if the Netherlands is the best example you can come up with, count me out of wanting anything to do with a culture that's actively contracepting itself out of existence (let me know how that seriously sub-replacement fertility rate works out for them in 50 years). If nothing else, the Netherlands (and really the vast majority of Western Europe) continues to prove Humanae Vitae correct.

[FayeforCure]

Is that what it means to "go Dutch"?

So true, "going Dutch" just means being pragmatic.

Ask any American teenager how that abstinence only is working out for them 

[NotNow]

I am not aware of the studies that you are quoting StephenDare!.  I am surprised by your quote that the majority of abortions is performed on conservative christian women (or evangelicals) and conservative catholics.  I am also a bit confused.  Are you claiming that most abortions are performed due to rape or sexual control?

I think what Clem is decrying is the use of abortion as a form of birth control casually.  While I don't claim to have all of the answers (or even a few) in the abortion debate, I do believe that the loss of these young lives is a tragedy of our times.  I certainly agree that this is a very complicated issue that affects the lives of many women (and men).  I also  agree with your hope that technology can provide some answer to this problem.

[Fallen Buckeye]

^^
In response to the above arguments:

1. Rape and incest are very tragic circumstances, and my heart goes out to the victims of these terrible crimes. However, two wrongs do not make a right. Someone violating your rights to your body does not justify denying another person the right to life. That's like saying that if someone were to give you AIDS that you have the right to kill them. It's a great cross for these women to bear in that situation, but we have to remember that unborn child is innocent.

2. I can't speak for Evangelical Protestants, but I know that among Catholics contraceptive use is comparable to the general public. Here is a link to a recent study that shows that data if you want the details:

http://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=nursing_fac&sei-redir=1#search="catholics+contractive+use+rates"

Here's an article showing how church attendance and overall religiosity have dropped in American.

http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/2009/04/09/the-fall-of-mass-attendance-but-not-us-religiosity/
So really I would suggest that you are looking at your data quite out of context. It's not necessarily that teaching Chastity is not effective way to counter unwanted pregnancies and abortion. It's just that people people place less value on religion in modern culture as opposed to other elements such as TV, movies, video games, etc. The data clearly shows that the average Catholic is no different than the average American in mindset.

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."-G.K. Chesterton

3. And you are absolutely right that women are more than baby making machines. Sex is procreative AND unitive. Neither aspect of it should be overemphasized. Both are important. And remember sex is only one part of a loving marriage between man and wife. If a man has respect for his wife, then they need to consider TOGETHER how they will plan their family. It is possible to plan when children using a woman's natural fertile signs in a way that is open to new life and respectful of women that does not use artificial birth control.

And how much happier are we as a society now that sex is exalted the way it has been? A 2002 study showed that 64% of all TV shows included some sexual content.
http://www.kff.org/entmedia/loader.cfm?url=/commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&PageID=14278
Yet I read that over 18% of adults have depression. Divorce rates are high. People are dissatisfied.

So sex is great, but in the proper context of a healthy loving relationship. In fact, the way you speak of sex devalues it in my eyes. The way you speak of sex makes the focus on your own needs when the focus and what makes sex truly satisfying in my view is when it is a gift of yourself to your spouse. In fact, I would say this view of sex as something I need contributes to the rape and incest problem you mentioned. Sex becomes a way to gain power over another instead of a way to give yourself when you take this 'enlightened' view of sex.  

Now I don't mean to suggest that your intentions are bad or that you do not care at all about life because I see you as someone who does care about people, but I hope you will consider the other side of the coin as well.

[NotNow]

Um...OK.  This is where I just point out that you have not proven your statements and that they are your unsubstantiated opinion.

I did do a simple Google search and found this:


The following is a list of useful abortion statistics as well as some facts on abortifacients. All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning Perspectives.
Click here for the Guttmacher Institute's latest fact sheet on abortion.

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

Where abortions occur:
83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?
While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.

© Copyright 1998, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)
© Copyright 1997, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)
© Copyright 1995, Family Planning Perspectives
© Copyright 1988, Family Planning Perspectives

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

And these:

http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.asp

National abortion statistics in the U.S. are available from two sources, privately from The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) and federally from the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). Since California, Louisiana, and New Hampshire do not provide abortion data to the federal government, and since California accounts for more abortions than any other state in the U.S, the CDC numbers are incomplete. AGI, on the other hand, is the research arm of Planned Parenthood, the world's largest abortion provider. While their data is helpful, they certainly have a position and agenda in regard to abortion. The following information has been gleaned from both sources to provide an overview of the frequency and demography of abortion.

TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ABORTION, VISIT THESE LINKS:
PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT, ABORTION TECHNIQUES, ABORTION PICTURES

IF YOU ARE PREGNANT, FREE LOCAL ASSISTANCE IS AVAILABLE. FIND HELP IN:
New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, OR SEARCH BY ZIP

ANNUAL ABORTION STATISTICS
In 2005 (the most recent year for which there is reliable data), approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S., down from an estimated 1.29 million in 2002, 1.31 million in 2000 and 1.36 million in 1996. From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions have occurred in the U.S. (AGI).
In 2004, the highest number of reported legal induced abortions occurred in Florida (91,710), NYC (91,673), and Texas (74,801); the fewest occurred in Wyoming (12), South Dakota (814), and Idaho (963) (CDC).
The abortion ratios by state ranged from a low of 43 abortions per 1,000 live births in Idaho to a high of 770 abortions per 1,000 live births in NYC (CDC).
Overall, the annual number of legal induced abortions in the United States increased gradually from 1973 until it peaked in 1990, and it generally declined thereafter (CDC).
In 1998, the last year for which estimates were made, more than 23% of legal induced abortions were performed in California (CDC).
The abortion rate in the United States was higher than recent rates reported for Canada and Western European countries and lower than rates reported for China, Cuba, the majority of Eastern European countries, and certain Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union (CDC).
The national legal induced abortion ratio increased from 196 abortions per 1,000 live births in 1973 to 358 abortions per 1,000 in 1979 and remained nearly stable through 1981. The ratio peaked at 364 abortions per 1,000 live births in 1984 and since then has demonstrated a generally steady decline. In 2001, the abortion ratio was 246 abortions per 1,000 live births (for the states that reported, a 0.4% increase from 2000 (CDC).
Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended; about 4 in 10 of these are terminated by abortion. Twenty-two percent of all U.S. pregnancies end in abortion. (AGI).

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?
At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).
The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 510 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 61 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).
50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).
Black women are more than 4.8 times more likely than non-Hispanic white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.7 times as likely (AGI).
43% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI).

WHY ARE ABORTIONS PERFORMED?
On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).
WHEN DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?
88% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week (AGI/CDC).
HOW ARE ABORTIONS PERFORMED?
87% of abortions were known to have been performed by curettage (which includes dilatation and evacuation [D&E]). Most curetage abortions are suction procedures (CDC).
Hysterectomy and hysterotomy were used in less than .01% of all abortions (CDC).
Medical abortions make up approximately 10% of all abortions reported (CDC).
WHO IS PERFORMING ABORTIONS?
The number of abortion providers declined by 11% between 1996 and 2000 (from 2,042 to 1,819). It declined another 2% between 2000 and 2005 (from 1,819 to 1,787) (AGI).
Forty percent of providers offer very early abortions (during the first four weeks’ gestation) and 96% offer abortion at eight weeks. Sixty-seven percent of providers offer at least some second-trimester abortion services (13 weeks or later), and 20% offer abortion after 20 weeks. Only 8% of all abortion providers offer abortions at 24 weeks (AGI).
ABORTION FATALITY
In 2003 (the most recent year for which data are available), 10 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion (CDC).
The number of deaths attributable to legal induced abortion was highest before the 1980s (CDC).
In 1972 (the year before abortion was federally legalized), a total of 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions, and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions (CDC).
THE COST OF ABORTION
In 2005, the cost of a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at 10 weeks of gestation ranged from $90 to $1,800, and the average amount paid was $413 (AGI).

MEDICAL ABORTION
In 2005, 57% of abortion providers, or 1,026 facilities, provided one or more types of medical abortions, a 70% increase from the first half of 2001. At least 10% of nonhospital abortion providers offer only medication abortion services (AGI).
In 2005, an estimated 161,100 early medication abortions were performed in nonhospital facilities (AGI).
Medication abortion accounted for 13% of all abortions, and 22% of abortions before nine weeks’ gestation, in 2005 (AGI).
ABORTION AND CONTRACEPTION
Induced abortions usually result from unintended pregnancies, which often occur despite the use of contraception (CDC).
54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using the methods inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use (AGI).
8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control (AGI).
9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method (AGI).

ABORTION AND MINORS
40% of minors having an abortion report that neither of their parents knew about the abortion (AGI).
35 states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion: AL, AR, AZ, CO, DE, FL, GA, IA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MD, MI, MN, MO, MS, NC, ND, NE, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA,WI, WV, and WY. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have the alternative of seeking a court order authorizing the procedure (AGI).

ABORTION AND PUBLIC FUNDS
The U.S. Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman's life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy or in cases of rape or incest (AGI).
17 states (AK, AZ, CA, CT, HI, IL, MA, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) do use public funds to pay for abortions for some poor women. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds (virtually all from the state) (AGI).

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the facts indicate that it is true that a majority of women obtaining abortions give the answer "protestant" or "catholic" when questioned about their religion, there is no mention of "conservative" in any study that I saw.  The study also indicates that rape is a cause of one percent of abortions and that "social reasons" is given as the cause for 96% of abortions.  This would seem to back up Clem's position.

Again, I don't claim to have the answers to this very personal question.  I can say that I am not OK with what is happening now.  I am not opposed to help with education and contraception.  I will never pretend that young men and young women will not couple up when given the opportunity.  I won't argue about what semen does for young women (other than to point out the danger of disease).  I DO pray that there is another answer than ending the lives of more than a million (at least potential) human children per year.  I understand that the lives of these young mothers is involved as well, but I am unsure of the meaning of "social reasons".  

[NotNow]

StephenDare!, from the last line of your quote:

"The groups that were the most likely to have an abortion were those affiliated with "other" religions or no religion at all, with abortion rates of 31 and 30 per 1,000 women, respectively."

Really, I don't think religion plays as large a role as we are giving it.  As Fallen Buckeye as pointed out, this country has become less religious.  It is obvious, however, that any claim about "conservative christians" or "conservative catholics" regarding abortions is unsubstatiated and incorrect.  Again, I hope this issue can be addressed without political polarization.

[BridgeTroll]

No doubt women have come a long way. And I agree with you that misogeny is larger than political affiliation.

However the issue of regulating of women's uteri is the exclusive focus of Republicans..........hence the title of this thread: "Republicans, Abortion, Women's Rights, and the challenges facing them."

I assume you were the one consolidating some of the various anti-abortion threads.

And here is what's happening in the Florida legislature today............only 39 Dems defending women against 81 Republicans ( in the Florida House..........similar undemocratic imbalance exists in the 40 member Senate)!!

The fast and furious attack on women’s health care continues. Today three bills hurting women and teens’ health will be heard in the Florida Senate Health Regulation Committee.

SB 1748, the Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers (TRAP) legislation is a backdoor attempt to deny women access to a legal health procedure.  If passed, this bill will hurt women and drive abortion providers out of practice. Also on agenda, SB 1744 would force a woman to undergo an ultrasound prior to an abortion even when it is not medically appropriate or is against the professional judgment of her physician. Finally, SB 1770 attempts to make it harder for a teen to obtain a judicial bypass by lengthening the time a judge has to determine whether a minor is sufficiently mature by close to three weeks.

Take action and tell your legislators to vote no on these bills.

If that weren’t enough, the recent flap over the ban of the word “uterus” in the Florida House comes at a time when our legislators seem to be preoccupied with attacking women’s reproductive rights and health.  With 18 anti-choice bills pending, it’s ironic that legislators can’t say the word “uterus”, but they feel very comfortable legislating it!

Watch the video below to learn more.

The whole uterus saga would be funny, were it not for that fact that women’s health and rights are at stake.  All of the anti-choice bills seek to make it harder and harder for women to get abortions – with little or no regard for the circumstances, even when terminating a pregnancy might protect a woman’s health.

Planned Parenthood continues to urge the legislature to focus on jobs and the economy and to stop playing politics with women’s lives.

Oh yeah.......government should come between a woman and her doctor, after all women cannot be trusted with their own healthcare decisions. 

Isn't this unconstitutional?!?

Your irrational finger pointing is as eye opening as it is hilarious.  Faye... what should be unconstitutional... um... err... unconscionable... is the fact that Democrats hold a majority of voters in this state but unerringly and repeatedly fail to show up at the polls thereby allowing RS and a overwhelming republican majority to do as it wishes.  Progressives are clearly to blame for most of the woes you complain about.

In Florida at least... democrats seem to... register to vote, fail to vote, and complain about the results of the vote.  Faye your hysterical diatribes are incredibly misdirected... and incredibly funny.  Just a suggestion Faye... Start 5 or 10 threads blasting your lazy progressive brethren.  More than a few of us might actually read those...

[uptowngirl]

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

[FayeforCure]

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

uptowngirl, obviously I think that's as appaling as you think. So I propose looking for solutions that have worked. That way we can work together to reduce the # of abortions that are due to lack of preventative contraception.

Clearly telling your girls and women to keep their legs crossed isn't working..............I guess you could keep trying harder to "change the culture," but even church groups haven't had much luck with that:

Who’s having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/ Evangelical
Likelihood of abortion:

Contraception is the ONLY thing that is guaranteed to work to reduce the number of abortions!!

As Stephen said, it's in our nature to be sexual beings.

And the sooner we have the courage to admit that, the sooner we will be able to find effective anti-abortion solutions on common ground.

[Garden guy]

The fact is that the republicans as a party seem to be completly against womens rights or anyones rights that they don't deem worthy. The party is doing nothing but dragging us all back into the 19th century. HOw can this continue with so many smart evolved people around? What's happening to our reasoning and reality?

[FayeforCure]

The fact is that the republicans as a party seem to be completly against womens rights or anyones rights that they don't deem worthy. The party is doing nothing but dragging us all back into the 19th century. HOw can this continue with so many smart evolved people around? What's happening to our reasoning and reality?

Yeah, and conventional wisdom is that as a candidate, you should avoid talking about the abotion issue at all cost, simply because it is so emotionally charged.

That's why you had triangulating Clinton saying:

"Abortions should be safe, legal and rare"

But we never have a REAL discussion on how to make abortions rare.

In all honesty, at least Dems don't claim to have the "moral highground" at every turn in their campaign. They are far too realistic for that.

The sooner we look for pragmatic solutions that actually are KNOWN to work, the sooner we can bring DOWN the the number of abortions.

Heck, wouldn't you just give anything to bring down the US abortion rate from an abysmal high of 22.3% of all confirmed pregnancies, to less than 10% as is the case in other western nations?

Or are we enabling our depressingly high abortion rate bcause we are unwilling to see REALITY for what it is..........without judgement of others?

A question to ponder for all Anti-abortion folks, of which I am one.

Lets ditch the symbolism once and for all and work for REAL solutions.

[Garden guy]

"How to make abortions rare?"....Hmm...how about we teach our children by our actions and stop treating eachother like sexual tools. It's in every song,every commercial, every movie, magazines..everything. our children see sexual content from the time they are born. Of course we are going to have a larger population of people who are fucking and fucking earlier and earlier. We are all to blame for the abortion rates when we have "top rated" by "us"..shows that sexualize women and depict girls and boys acting way too old.....look at Glee...that's an abortion waiting to happen...and i do love that show...but the fact is that we condition our population to accept sex and the product of sex is the baby.

[buckethead]

One thing you fail to mention in your comparative analysis between the US and the Netherlands is the disparity in levels of education.

You just might bring the free contraceptives, but American yooths might be too stupid to actually see any benefit or too lazy/apathetic to take action.