Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[Timkin]

Ock is not one to name-call.. I feel sure he would not deliberately "label" yourself or anyone else.. his post quote findings from another source. They are not "his" numbers.  I don't see where he labeled you in any way. 

When it comes to finding someone with more knowledge about rail and streetcars, I think you would be hard-pressed to match Ock's , and that is not to say that you did not make valid points, nor that you are not entitled to your opinion .. you definitely are.   

[buckethead]

If you continue to Troll

He did use the word troll.





As a verb. It speaks to an action, not a person.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone more patient and tolerant than ock, despite his vast resume regarding this very issue. I've heard rumors that he has designed complete rail systems for nations. (Should that be Nations with a capital "N"?)

I'd say his views are relevant.

None of this is to say that differing views aren't encouraged. Buuuut, if Ock say's buckethead is trolling, there's a good chance that buckethead needs to review his own posts.

[middleman]

Ok, here are some real numbers on a working streetcar. The TECO line in Tampa. The TECO line passes the following attractions in downtown tampa:

Ybor Museum State Park
Hilton Garden Inn Ybor
Centennial Park - Ybor
Central Ybor (shopping & dining)
HCC Ybor Campus
Hampton Inn - Ybor
Con Vincente De Ybor Historic Inn
USF Downtown
Port Authority Headquarters
2 Cruise Terminals
American Victory Museum Ship
Florida Aquarium
Channelside Bay Plaza (Shopping & Dining)
Visitors Information Center
Yacht StarShip Cruises
Tampa Bay History Center
Tampa Marriott Waterside Hotel
Embassy Suites - Harborside
Tampa Convention Center
Hyatt Regency Hotel
GreenLine and PurpleLine Trolley lines linking the rest of downtown
--- and everything being built in between ----

Pretty impressive, huh? Here's the link:
http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/about/maps/downtown_network_map_12_01_10.pdf

So what do you think last year's ridership was? Less than 400000 (Feb 2010 - Jan 2011)

Jacksonville's streetcar line will have:
The Landing
The Prime Osbourne Convention Center
The non-functional Union Station
Beautiful Park Ave or (barf) Myrtle Ave.
Fuller-Warren Farmer's market (weekends)
Cummer Museum
5 points shopping district
Maybe a couple of B&Bs in Riverside
St Vincent's Hospital

And THIS is supposed to attract 500000 riders?

My point is Ock is basing his whole argument on a study done in the mid-eighties, which has no basis in fact... just pie-in-the-sky "maybe if we tell em half a million they'll give us the money to build it"

Don't get me wrong... I want to see Jax have a downtown district like Tampa does. I want to see a historic streetcar line, I'll be the first in line. But if we put it in and do nothing else, let's just say, it isn't going to meet rider expectations.

[Timkin]

and ummm... dare I ask who stated we would do nothing else?

[buckethead]

TOD

Copy/Paste/Google

[middleman]

BTW, I have no problem being told I'm TROLLing the discussion. Maybe it seemed like I was. I take no offense, but someone else might have a thinner skin. Its better to just leave terms like that alone.

[middleman]

and ummm... dare I ask who stated we would do nothing else?

As I understood Ock's claim, the streetcar alone would be the catalyst that attracts the masses, that starts the development ball rolling. My position has been that you need to create a reason to travel downtown first, then build your streetcar, like Tampa did. Otherwise, you might end up with another Skyway-like failure that throws future streetcar development into a black hole for another decade or two.

[thelakelander]

There really is no reason to go to DT Tampa now. It's condition is pretty similar to DT Jax.  However, that streetcar has helped spur a lot of infill development in the Channel District and Ybor, since it opened in 2002.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, I'm challenging your numbers, because they need to be challenged. Plain old common sense can deduce that a new streetcar line alone will NOT attract 500K new tourists to downtown. And plain old common sense can deduce that the tourist at the beaches are not going to come into town just to ride a streetcar. I don't need to be a railroad man to know a streetcar line between neighborhoods that have no particular attractions isn't going to become a big tourist attraction... it takes more than that.

Why do people ride museum streetcars when there is no other attraction there but the museum streetcars? Why did Old Pueblo Trolley which competed head on with a PCT BUS but only ran 3 days a week with limited trips, a more limited route, much higher fares pile up better ridership numbers then the PCT? The PCT ran the exact same route DAILY all day (like the Riverside PCT) the routes were identical, same streets, but the streetcar stopped short of going all the way into town. You will not convince me as this is my life's vocation and an avocation with passion. So if you don't want to read the links we have posted, then I just guess we will remain in a state of disagreement. I will, however reserve the right to laugh when the streetcar blows away whatever ridership estimate they give it for its first year. Plain old common sense might tell you that a Goodwrench Mechanic might be just as smart as a doctor, so next time you find yourself ill, check in at the local Chevy dealer and let me know how that works out for you.

BTW, I walk the Riverwalk or the 5 points area almost every day. Do you? I ride the non-trolley trolley often, maybe every week or too, do you? I am a regular patron at the Cummer, are you? I'm all over downtown and never see "tourists". Businessmen, plenty. Tourist no. Downtown Jax is pretty near to ground zero as far as tourists go. You have a very long way to go to build up this city to the point that it can sustain the type of rider populations you are talking about. That is NOT a negative message, its a "we need to get off our butts and turn Jax into a world-class place" message.

As a matter of fact I do... I'm always downtown, but I'm a dedicated FIXED ROUTE transit rider and the Skyway has indention's in those front cars where my fat ass has wore it down. Until I got the pneumonia I was downtown almost all the time, day and night... and "I SHALL RETURN..." (a little stolen drama there). I meet people from all over the country, ESPECIALLY on the Skyway. A long way to go to reach the populations I'm talking about? If your referring to the 2+  million tourists that come to the city every year, we're already there. St. Augustine, add another 6 million. These are the billion dollar plus benefit of being in Florida. I agree that we need even more, but we don't need a thing to make the streetcar into the hottest development tool in the last 50 years.

And as long as we are dropping credentials on the table, I have a degree in math with 35 years experience. And its my educated OPINION that the numbers you are throwing around are questionable, and therefore should be questioned!!! I'm doing this so if you guys do happen to get to meet with the JTA, you don't make fools of yourself with trumped up claims and dubious math that doesn't add up. I'm just looking out for you.

And I hope that your don't drop the TROLL label on everybody that challenges you. Very charming.

No not everyone, I just like to piss people off! As for JTA? Our last 3 or 4 public meeting confrontations (and there are MANY) have generally ended in them being the fools. "The people hate rail, they'll never vote for streetcar in Charlotte." "There are no tunnels under Jacksonville Terminal." "To rebuild that old railroad to Gateway we'd have to cross LONG BRANCH CREEK and that would be like bridging the NILE." and one of my favorite quotes... "YOU RAIL GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF DAMN FLYING MONKEYS!" Ooh and then there was that BRT video in front of the City Council... wow, just wow.  I've been in some type of transportation for 30+ years... and who knows? We can always use another "mathamagician" the numbers Light Rail in general is piling up around the world are getting out of hand.

OCKLAWAHA

[middleman]

There really is no reason to go to DT Tampa now. It's condition is pretty similar to DT Jax.  However, that streetcar has helped spur a lot of infill development in the Channel District and Ybor, since it opened in 2002.

I don't understand. DT Tampa has actual attractions that real people come to visit. I love the new aquarium, and Ybor City's museums are fascinating. Jax has nothing like it.

You are correct though about the infill development along the TECO streetcar line. Hopefully we can get the same effect here, but like I've been saying, you need to get people to come DT first.

[tufsu1]

I don't know Middleman...I'll take the Cummer Museum and MOCA over some of the museums in Ybor City...plus we have RAM, the Riverwalk, the library, and the Landing all along or near the proposed streetcar line.

[thelakelander]

Funny thing though. Even with all that new development around the Tampa streetcar line, it still attracts less riders than the skyway because it's only set up to serve tourist. Go figure. Btw, Middleman, Ybor and the Channel District aren't a part of DT Tampa. Distance wise, the Channel District is our Brooklyn/LaVilla and Ybor is our 5 points.

[Garden guy]

Would'nt it be cool to be the first city to have a completely solar trolly system covering 50% of our city.....hey..i can dream...i know something so advance will probably never happen with our leaders but hey..i can dream.

[middleman]

Funny thing though. Even with all that new development around the Tampa streetcar line, it still attracts less riders than the skyway because it's only set up to serve tourist. Go figure. Btw, Middleman, Ybor and the Channel District aren't a part of DT Tampa. Distance wise, the Channel District is our Brooklyn/LaVilla and Ybor is our 5 points.

What was the skyway's ridership last year? (I could look it up, but I know you know)

[Ocklawaha]

44,375 - Skyway Express - 18% growth... well at least those are the ones that found a working turnstile and paid to ride.

OCKLAWAHA