Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[tufsu1]

because the freight tracks that are there now go under the highest point of the bridge....new tracks closer to the building would need to be installed for commuter rail/Amtrak...and those would cross under the bridge as it slopes down.

That said, I think it may be possible to dig the tracks down a few feet and get under the viaduct....that would kill the old pedestrian tunnels that are there, but because of ADA and other consideration I really doubt those could have been reused anyway

[Ocklawaha]

That's the whole catch, the LEE STREET viaduct (historic name) will come down before commuter rail and Amtrak start using Jacksonville Terminal again as a service stop. There is currently room for only 3 tracks underneath. Sadly the old viaduct was beautiful and suddenly "in need of replacement - beyond repair," when the Convention Center moved to Jacksonville Terminal and Water Street was extended to create a view. Five will get you fifty that there was nothing wrong with that viaduct that a band-aid repair job wouldn't have fixed. To create the all important view (which they almost immediately destroyed with Skyway and ramps) the north end of the viaduct was shortened and the gradient steepened considerably.

Someday we'll have commuter rail and intercity passenger trains will be splitting and combining at our Terminal again, maybe not in my lifetime, but when they do 3-4 tracks is going to be laughable. So it's a given, the viaduct WILL COME DOWN, the question is will it be replaced? With the current traffic loads, I doubt it. what I hear in the JTA rumor mill? "No replacement."

The subway would be cool I'll grant you that TU, but beyond cool there are other important things to consider, the aforesaid viaduct situation, and the fact that Myrtle would open a gateway straight into the heart of the restored Durkeeville neighborhood. In fact if that is the route that is someday chosen, I'd install the switches as the BAY-MYRTLE-FOREST line was being built for future use.
Myrtle has the makings of a very cool historic district, it would just take a catalyst to make it happen.
It also puts the streetcar right at JTA'S maintenance facility gate.
The future park along McCoy's Creek would make the Myrtle line the primary access link. Perhaps there is a potential extension of Dennis Street to come in and match up with Lelia as a creek side drive?
If we plan to rebuild the viaduct AGAIN, then there is opportunity to use Park or Lelia, as any new viaduct could match the grade on the south side of the creek with streetcar installed.

Just for the sake of understanding where my vision comes from, here's a quick sketch that lays out the lines and the primary bus routes (not all bus routes shown).

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

because the freight tracks that are there now go under the highest point of the bridge....new tracks closer to the building would need to be installed for commuter rail/Amtrak...and those would cross under the bridge as it slopes down.

That said, I think it may be possible to dig the tracks down a few feet and get under the viaduct....that would kill the old pedestrian tunnels that are there, but because of ADA and other consideration I really doubt those could have been reused anyway

Not possible to dig down the tracks TU, it's already in violation of FRA rules when JTA lowered them for the current viaduct. IN THE FLOOD PLAIN, could mean that all of south Florida would be cutoff from freight or passenger rail with a single tropical storm, no hurricane needed.

The tunnels ramp up to the platforms and would meet or closely match ADA standards, they are no different then the same ramp/tunnels in Dallas, or Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal. Also, PSsssst...THEY'RE BACK on the RADAR for Amtrak.



OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

This is nonsense.  If the viaduct comes down, it will be replaced.  Current Downtown TCEA plans still call for Park to one day be widened (although I doubt this happens).  It is a critical link in the urban street network.  Its not going anywhere.  So, if that viaduct is a clearance issue, it will either be replaced or we probably won't have commuter rail.

[Timkin]

Not that it matters now, but I just cannot help but wonder why the original viaduct was actually torn down.    Was it unstable ?    Looks like replacing the now existing with something that somewhat resembles what was there would be the most feasible thing.

[thelakelander]

I believe the planners of that era wanted to make a view corridor down Water Street, between the convention center and downtown.  Unfortunately, they made an isolated "suburban-style" decision with little thought about how it would impact the things surrounding it.

[Timkin]

And now, in order for rail to be enhanced , it must be replaced.. I suppose they built it , never dreaming that rail might someday , take off again. 

I , for one, would see it replaced with something looking a little more like the first Viaduct.

[middleman]

Really? ZERO tourism? How about:
*Locally, 42,900 jobs were supported by tourism, accounting for nearly 11 percent of our workforce in 2009.
*Duval County welcomed over 2.6 million overnight visitors who generated $1.5 billion in economic impact for Jacksonville.
*Jacksonville is still primarily a leisure destination with 82.5 percent of travelers in town for vacation, visiting friends or relatives or events. Twenty-three percent of visitors were in town for business purposes in 2009.
*Jacksonville visitors had a 92 percent satisfaction rate with the destination proving how viable our city is for tourism.

I have the feeling you are looking at the tourist statistics for Metro Jacksonville, which includes the beaches, Amelia island, and St Augustine. That is meaningless when we are talking about Downtown. Downtown has virtually no tourists. A few daytrippers come in from the suburbs to the museums, and its a very few. The Cummer Museum is a marvelous and its gardens are one of the prettiest places in the universe. It barely gets by. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO TOURISTS IN DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE!!!

You're throwing questionable numbers out there to make your point, but what its really doing is making you lose all of your credibility. Claiming 500K yearly tourist flocking to Jacksonville just to ride the streetcar is simply ridiculous. Now, if Jacksonville had what Tampa has, a world-class aquarium, and the equivalent of the Ybor City museum district, then maybe that streetcar line running between them would get your 500K riders. (Has it reached 500K yet?). But Jacksonville has NOTHING to attract outside riders like that, all Jax has is the downtown Workers commuting to Riverside, and the workers looking for an easy ride to the restaurant districts AND THEY ALREADY HAVE THAT!

Look, I'm just trying to inject some common sense into this conversation. A streetcar alone is going to be another waste of money like the Skyway. If a lot of other things happen first, like a thriving DT entertainment district, the promised development along Riverside, the revamped Union Station that actually is a transportation hub, and maybe a couple of serious tourist attractions (an Aquarium in Jacksonville? a world-class railroad musuem?)... then build your streetcar and maybe it will pay for itself.

BTW, I hear what you are saying about the ball fields, the south jax museums, etc... problem is there are no immediate plans for streetcars going there. So stop trying to embellish your argument with nonsense that's not going to happen. Maybe they might be planned in 25 years, but after the first streetcar line fails, you'll never get another streetcar extension funded in this city. Does that argument sound familiar??? (HSR, Skyway)

[Kay]

This is nonsense.  If the viaduct comes down, it will be replaced.  Current Downtown TCEA plans still call for Park to one day be widened (although I doubt this happens).  It is a critical link in the urban street network.  Its not going anywhere.  So, if that viaduct is a clearance issue, it will either be replaced or we probably won't have commuter rail.

Please god let's not widen yet another road.  The Brooklyn Master Plan calls for Park St. to be the neighborhood commercial street-pedestrian friendly.  What does TCEA stand for?

[thelakelander]

Transportation Concurrency Exemption Area.  Btw, I don't think that road will ever be widened, nor should it or any other street in the historic core.  However, I did notice that the JEDC had suggested a widening (they also suggested a fare free skyway) in the 2005 TCEA documents.

[Ocklawaha]

Really? ZERO tourism? How about:
*Locally, 42,900 jobs were supported by tourism, accounting for nearly 11 percent of our workforce in 2009.
*Duval County welcomed over 2.6 million overnight visitors who generated $1.5 billion in economic impact for Jacksonville.
*Jacksonville is still primarily a leisure destination with 82.5 percent of travelers in town for vacation, visiting friends or relatives or events. Twenty-three percent of visitors were in town for business purposes in 2009.
*Jacksonville visitors had a 92 percent satisfaction rate with the destination proving how viable our city is for tourism.

I have the feeling you are looking at the tourist statistics for Metro Jacksonville, which includes the beaches, Amelia island, and St Augustine. That is meaningless when we are talking about Downtown. Downtown has virtually no tourists. A few daytrippers come in from the suburbs to the museums, and its a very few. The Cummer Museum is a marvelous and its gardens are one of the prettiest places in the universe. It barely gets by. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO TOURISTS IN DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE!!!

So what if we are looking at Tourism for the whole city, (and no, those numbers do not include Amelia Island or St. Augustine which gets over 6,000,000 per year alone).  Better check your math, if 82.5% are beach tourists (the vacationers) that leaves 455,000 DOWNTOWN! Moreover you are completely oblivious to the other 45,000 I would need to reach 500,000 tourists downtown, because at that rate you are trying to convince our readers, on any given day only 123 people are in town not on business... You've obviously spent WAY too much time in the sticks around Flagler County and not enough time walking along the Riverwalk on weekdays.

You're throwing questionable numbers out there to make your point, but what its really doing is making you lose all of your credibility. Claiming 500K yearly tourist flocking to Jacksonville just to ride the streetcar is simply ridiculous. Now, if Jacksonville had what Tampa has, a world-class aquarium, and the equivalent of the Ybor City museum district, then maybe that streetcar line running between them would get your 500K riders. (Has it reached 500K yet?). But Jacksonville has NOTHING to attract outside riders like that, all Jax has is the downtown Workers commuting to Riverside, and the workers looking for an easy ride to the restaurant districts AND THEY ALREADY HAVE THAT!

I didn't originate the report that 500,000 people will ride the streetcars, DDA did in their study, and I am repeating it because based on other tourist mecca's like Memphis, or Portland, or Tacoma, that's exactly the type of numbers they get. Add to that the fact that geography places Jacksonville between 49 states and DISNEY/UNIVERSAL/SEA WORLD, and percentage wise, we get far more tourists passing within a quarter mile of downtown then any of those other cities. I won't lose my credibility, you made a statement and asked a question:

Your whole premise is that the current bus/fake-trolley system doesn't move the same people today from downtown to Riverside and back that a projected streetcar system would be projected to move. This just doesn't make sense. Where are the new riders coming from?

All I've done is answer you. If you continue to Troll this discussion and ignore the links we've posted just to argue, then there is absolutely no point in wasting our time.  

"But Jacksonville has NOTHING to attract outside riders like that"

Did you bother to look at the TOURIST RAILWAY INDUSTRY? If you had you'd be singing a different tune, Jacksonville doesn't need anything to have a successful streetcar line, the streetcar IS THE ATTRACTION and all the rest... Cummer Museum, Riverwalk, etc. are gravy.

Look, I'm just trying to inject some common sense into this conversation. A streetcar alone is going to be another waste of money like the Skyway. If a lot of other things happen first, like a thriving DT entertainment district, the promised development along Riverside, the revamped Union Station that actually is a transportation hub, and maybe a couple of serious tourist attractions (an Aquarium in Jacksonville? a world-class railroad museum?)... then build your streetcar and maybe it will pay for itself.

Your not injecting anything but ignorance into this discussion because you completely lack any working knowledge of streetcars and railroad museums, or streetcar transit statistics in America. Worse still, your posing as someone that "knows," when all you are doing is repeating the same negative argument over and over expecting a different result.

"I can personally tell you that... If there was a streetcar there instead with double the capacity, you WILL NOT SEE ANY DIFFERENCE in ridership... those same potential customers aren't going to say, "Yes, lets go down to Riverside or Avondale today because we can rid nice shiny expensive new heritage streetcars". Its not going to happen!"

How many railroads or streetcar projects have you worked on? If the answer is none, then your argument is merely opinion with no factual foundation.

BTW, I hear what you are saying about the ball fields, the south jax museums, etc... problem is there are no immediate plans for streetcars going there. So stop trying to embellish your argument with nonsense that's not going to happen. Maybe they might be planned in 25 years, but after the first streetcar line fails, you'll never get another streetcar extension funded in this city. Does that argument sound familiar??? (HSR, Skyway)

Currently this is still in speculation, the actual route might change or be longer then we anticipated, there is a certain pull toward Beaver Street and the Stadium District that might manifest itself in actual construction.  To use these points in a speculative argument is not embellishment, merely an option that has presented itself. BTW, the Skyway may have funding lined up by the end of this year for expansion south within a 10 year window. The streetcar funding will also come to life by the end of this year, and it's window is pretty immediate. I don't understand what your beef is all about with "spending money" or "another Skyway" because none of these projects will be funded by property taxes.


OCKLAWAHA

[PeeJayEss]

If a lot of other things happen first, like a thriving DT entertainment district, the promised development along Riverside

I'd dare say you're starting to see the DT entertainment district. Granted, its not where Laura St hits the river (though when there's an event there it gets real crowded, and though not thriving the rest of the time, you get pretty good crowds on weekends), its a bit scattered, and its not particularly friendly to peds. But you hang out in the Bay-Adams/Liberty-Main around 2:30am on a Friday night and you will see a lot of folks getting pushed out of bars and nightclubs. You've got half a dozen unique, quality (subjective) bars all within a couple blocks, plus a couple good food places that are open fairly late, a music and drinking place apparently about to open, and if there's something going on at the theatre, forget about it. And the Landing isn't too far off for the non-lazy. Add to that all the food places (granted, many close early), museum, skyway stop south of Hemming and that area is ripe for a nightlife explosion. Heck, if that area gets a couple bars you'd probably see enough demand for the Skyway to run late.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but no one has ever accused me of that before.

To further hijack the thread, why are all the streets downtown 4 lanes? I feel like allowing 2-way traffic on Forsyth and Adams would help things. Or (they are both actually 3 lanes in a single direction right?), make them both 2 lanes in 1 direction (or one lane each direction for each road) and throw in some serious bike lanes. Not that its particularly difficult to navigate downtown on a bike what with the lack of cars, but it'd be nice to make the bicycler official.

Also, middleman, I get the sense from your comments that, though you are disagreeing with Ock on some points (which I would generally discourage as he really knows this stuff), you are supportive of mass transit and downtown awesomeness, so thumbs up!

[middleman]

Ock, I'm challenging your numbers, because they need to be challenged. Plain old common sense can deduce that a new streetcar line alone will NOT attract 500K new tourists to downtown. And plain old common sense can deduce that the tourist at the beaches are not going to come into town just to ride a streetcar. I don't need to be a railroad man to know a streetcar line between neighborhoods that have no particular attractions isn't going to become a big tourist attraction... it takes more than that.

BTW, I walk the Riverwalk or the 5 points area almost every day. Do you? I ride the non-trolley trolley often, maybe every week or too, do you? I am a regular patron at the Cummer, are you? I'm all over downtown and never see "tourists". Businessmen, plenty. Tourist no. Downtown Jax is pretty near to ground zero as far as tourists go. You have a very long way to go to build up this city to the point that it can sustain the type of rider populations you are talking about. That is NOT a negative message, its a "we need to get off our butts and turn Jax into a world-class place" message.

And as long as we are dropping credentials on the table, I have a degree in math with 35 years experience. And its my educated OPINION that the numbers you are throwing around are questionable, and therefore should be questioned!!! I'm doing this so if you guys do happen to get to meet with the JTA, you don't make fools of yourself with trumped up claims and dubious math that doesn't add up. I'm just looking out for you.

And I hope that your don't drop the TROLL label on everybody that challenges you. Very charming.

[Timkin]

I didn't read where Ock labeled you a troll?  ?  ?

[middleman]

It reads like "troll" to me:

All I've done is answer you. If you continue to Troll this discussion and ignore the links we've posted just to argue, then there is absolutely no point in wasting our time.