Can a Streetcar cost less than a Faux Trolley?

[thelakelander]

If the Park Street viaduct is used, you should be concerned, at least up to Dora or Price Street, until further study is completed.  That's roughly a four block stretch of Brooklyn.

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry Ock... I don't have time to answer to all of your response, but since this was one of most outrageous of your claims, can you please share with us the marketing study that determined that "an estimated 500,000 unique passengers a year would visit Jacksonville JUST TO RIDE THE STREETCARS." ?

Which part is outrageous? Could it be that you apparently have never visited and/or are otherwise ignorant of the museum industry in this country, and it's accompanying tourism? Could it be because you believe that only if Gettysburg happened next to Disney would it get any visitors? Just as Civil War or Military buff's keep the turnstiles humming at the National Military Parks, because they are sought out. Likewise railroad and transportation museums or unique operations are sought out throughout the world.

The report was done by a major marketing company on the Southbank, and could be found in the streetcar project reports done by DDA in 1982-84.

I assume since currently Jacksonville DT is an absolute ZERO as a tourist destination, that for a streetcar line alone to bring 500K new tourists a year, seems like a wee bit of a stretch, don't you?

Really? ZERO tourism? How about:
*Locally, 42,900 jobs were supported by tourism, accounting for nearly 11 percent of our workforce in 2009.
*Duval County welcomed over 2.6 million overnight visitors who generated $1.5 billion in economic impact for Jacksonville.
*Jacksonville is still primarily a leisure destination with 82.5 percent of travelers in town for vacation, visiting friends or relatives or events. Twenty-three percent of visitors were in town for business purposes in 2009.
*Jacksonville visitors had a 92 percent satisfaction rate with the destination proving how viable our city is for tourism.

Look y'all, if Jax actually had DT tourist destinations like Tampa has, a Streetcar would make sense, just like it does it Tampa. But 500K of new visitors each year just to visit a Streetcar line, when there is nothing else? Sorry I'm not that gullible. I assume the folks you were pitching the streetcar line to weren't that gullible either.

Actually it was much worse then that, THEY BOUGHT THE SKYWAY, lock, stock and barrel! At that time (mid-1980's) we could have built approximately 35 miles of modern light-rail or streetcar on exclusive right-of-way. The nations FIRST heritage streetcar (as proposed) would have laid the track and groundwork for the downtown portion of such an eventual system.

I think a streetcar line would work and would attract lots of riders if
1) You put it somewhere there is ALREADY attractions which people would want easy access between. A line from Atlantic to Jax Beach comes to mind. Or perhaps a loop around St Augustine.

AGREED! How about 25,000 people all gathered in the densest compact space in Duval? How about MOSH? Everbank Field? The Riverwalk? Arena? Friendship Fountain? MOCA? Riverside Arts Market? Baseball Grounds? Cummer Museum? Jacksonville Terminal? Convention Center? Jacksonville Historical Museum (JHS) Old St. Lukes?  Jacksonville Landing? Fairgounds? Brewster Hospital? San Marco and 5-Points Village shopping districts? Yeah... NOTHING.

Ever stuff rocks, pebbles, sand and water into a mason jar? It doesn't work unless the big rocks go in first...DOWNTOWN is our big rock.

2) A DT Jax line would work if PEOPLE LIVED DOWN TOWN!!!. And also if there was a real destinations on the route between DT and Riverside. Right now there are a few office buildings and most of those are half-empty.

CSX, BLUE CROSS, EVERBANK and FIDELITY FEDERAL alone could keep it humming, toss in a few thousand residents and another 15,000 daily downtown employees, and the fact that 5-Points and Park & King are prime destinations for unique restaurants, and entertainment as well as shopping districts which creates critical mass at one end and critical need/supply at the other. (the Skyway conversely has only mass and mass)

3) A DT Jax line running to Union Station would work, if Union Station was actually used as a transportation hub. Put a commuter rail station there and now we are talking.

BINGO! What pray tell do you think we are proposing?

4) And what the hell are you pushing Myrtle Avenue for??? This area is the armpit of the city. The city is having a hard time getting new development on Riverside. Me suspects the gentrification of Myrtle might be several decades off.

Myrtle would be used between Bay and Forest, or Bay and Price and hence to Forest.  There is a likelyhood that the Lee Street Viaduct over the railroad yard will be removed (JTA built it too low and trains won't fit under most of  it). That leaves us with Riverside and Myrtle, but Riverside is not suitable for streetcar between Bay and Leila Streets, and it already has Skyway right-of-way, Skyway drawings, and a Skyway facility. Myrtle on the other hand is the historic streetcar route and probably already has track under the pavement. The subway which is a long-lived flooding problem was actually designed with drainage and pumps...UNDER THE STREETCAR TRACK IN THE CENTER...which the City has filled in, 2 fixes in one project? The area between the subway and Forest contains a couple of blocks of historic recyclable buildings, the McCoy's Creek Greenway, and ample vacant land for future development with a freeway interchange at Forest. It goes well with using what we already have.

Look guys, I know you guys all love your rail, but spending that kind of money and hoping the it will instantly bring new development sound suspiciously like what they said about the Skyway. Don't you think it would be a bit more prudent to find ways to bring people back to the City first, THEN build your streetcars?

READ THE LINKS we've provided... EVERY SINGLE LIGHT RAIL PROJECT IN THE COUNTRY HAS RESULTED IN EXPLOSIVE DEVELOPMENT.

As Lake said, this isn't even really about tourists, but in the original incarnation, tourism could/and still can be used as a back door into a comprehensive system, open as it is to volunteerism and unique grants. Because both historic cars and modern cars can operate on the same track, and because we are always looking for ways to boost tourism we should not discount the idea of a McKinney Avenue style "working museum."

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

of course all this focus on Park Street is unnecessary....

The general proposed streetcar route according to the 2035 LRTP is Park Street from the Prime Osborn across the viaduct....then it turns through the Brooklyn Park area and then down Riverside Avenue to Margaret Street....this was done to take advantage of the additional ROW on the six-lane Riverside Ave. set aside for skyway extension, which we won't see for at least 10 years (if ever)

Yeah, I've seen it... PLEASE DON'T TELL ME YOU DREW IT! It's a horrible idea for several reasons...

A typical Jacksonville FUBAR of a someday Skyway route, already owned and planned, then the classic Jacksonville Jig of "Oh well, screw that, we'll build this instead, and if and when THAT comes along we'll uh... umm? OH I KNOW! WE'LL LOOK STUPID AGAIN! Jacksonville has demonstrated almost ZERO ability to stick with a plan.

Riverside is now more like a freeway then a pedestrian friendly avenue, so let's toss a pedestrian friendly mode of transit right down the sideline.

Geography 101, looking at a map of Brooklyn and imagineering how it might someday look filled out, the people in the offices, homes, or recreational facilities along Riverside might have 3 modes of travel... BUS, STREETCAR and SKYWAY. The people along Park on the other hand will get BUS (depending on the viaducts future) and have to walk 4 blocks to reach the same transit. The poor souls on Myrtle will have to walk 8 blocks!

We seem to be discounting the buildability and recycling possibilities on Park or Myrtle. We flush those ideas because well... Brooklyn is 10 years off... maybe 20 or 30... so forget it, we'll cross that bridge AFTER we've screwed the pooch. Hey I've got a great idea, let's builld a BRT line UNDERNEATH our Skyway in the Southbank. That ought to match up well with the cluster F**k that seems to be on Brooklyn's horizon.

Imagine you live in the center of this image...


JACKSONVILLE PLAN?


MJ CONCEPT ALTERNATIVE A

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Sorry ock, but I'm with lake on this one...I know you really want to use that "tunnel" but it makes little sense to run the streetcar on Myrtle.

Now I'm all for having the streetcar run on Park from the viaduct on down to Forest and then switch over to Riverside...that should happen if the extension of the Skyway is still on the table...if not, then the streetcar should follow the route on the top graphic.

[thelakelander]

The Park Street viaduct doesn't reach grade till Stonewall Street, so a Leila Street crossover is probably a no go without significant reconstruction.  From a TOD and transit user perspective, you would want to take advantage of Park's central location at least until Dora or Price Street.  Speaking of Brooklyn, that would put within three blocks of every spot in the neighborhood and fuel infill everwhere between Myrtle and Riverside.  Such a connection would also still hit Everbank, BCBS, Fidelity, RAM and Cummer right at their front door while still being within a block or two of the YMCA and Haskell.  

As for the skyway extension down Riverside, I love fixed transit as much as you guy's do (well maybe not as much as Ock) but its a waste to do a streetcar and a skyway extension so close together to serve the same area.  Since the streetcar would stretch into Riverside, it should be designed to serve the big offices on Riverside Avenue and stimulate infill walkable development in Brooklyn.  Take the money that it would cost to extend the skyway to Forest Street and use it to get the skyway down to Atlantic Avenue in San Marco or fixed transit to the stadium.

Also, in both maps there is a ton of transit duplication.  If we're going to invest in fixed transit, let's run it like a transit spine and funnel as many existing bus riders into it as possible.  In short, lose the parallel bus lines down Park & Riverside.  The only bus lines shown, should be those that feed riders into the transit spine before turning around and heading back to their specific neighborhoods of service.

Nevertheless, we're getting way ahead of ourselves.  Let's make sure the plan that would establish a funding mechanism for the project is in place first (hopefully it will be adopted before Peyton leaves office).  The time to study and vet specific alignments is still off in the distance.

[Dashing Dan]

I do feel that it would be better to extend the skyway out into San Marco.

Regardless of whether or not it gets a streetcar, Park Street needs help - the sooner the better.

[thelakelander]

I can't argue here.  San Marco's landscape presents a unique challenge that really only the skyway is best set up to serve.  Same goes for Park Street.

[Timkin]

I definitely agree that Park St. is in need of upgrade..  I have a question though,,, It was mentioned the viaduct would need to go because it is too low for rail ... would it be replaced or done away with altogether ?

[Dashing Dan]

I vote for replacement not removal.  Removal of the Lee Street/Park Street viaduct would be very bad overall.

[johnnyroadglide]

Are we talking about the Park St viaduct right next to Union Station? The one that FEC and NS and CSX go under every day?

[Dashing Dan]

In lieu of extending the skyway directly out along Riverside, it make make better sense to extend the skyway out into Riverside from the convention center.  At least it's worth a look.

[Dashing Dan]

Are we talking about the Park St viaduct right next to Union Station? The one that FEC and NS and CSX go under every day?

yes - at least that's what I am talking about

[Timkin]

Extend the Skyway to  Annie Lytle , as Ock has suggested for years..  a good place to extend it to, and a new use for an old School House.

[thelakelander]

I vote for replacement not removal.  Removal of the Lee Street/Park Street viaduct would be very bad overall.

+1.  There is no way that viaduct will be torn down and not replaced.  That would be a horrible decision and blow to the future of that area and the downtown area in general.

[johnnyroadglide]

Are we talking about the Park St viaduct right next to Union Station? The one that FEC and NS and CSX go under every day?

yes - at least that's what I am talking about

Well thats my question then. If trains already go under it now, why are we talking about replacing it because its too low for trains to go under. Confused look on my face.